S2 Ep 35 - Global Calendars, Coaches Galore & Giant Collapses

Rumours of South African teams stepping away from European competition are getting louder, and the consequences could be huge. We get into why the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup have been such a logistical headache, why “player welfare” is both a real concern and a convenient headline, and how a broken global rugby calendar keeps forcing square pegs into round holes. If South Africa moves, the URC, European formats, and even the shape of British domestic rugby could shift with it.

From there we give the Red Roses their flowers after another Women’s Six Nations Grand Slam, with a look at how England’s evolving attacking game is raising the bar for everyone. We also take a moment to reflect on the sad passing of Scotland legend Scott Hastings, and what it means when names from the sport’s history suddenly feel much closer to home.

Then it is full throttle Gallagher Premiership: Northampton Saints explode for 94 against Bristol, Bath cruise past Newcastle, and Harlequins pull off a wild fightback to stun Exeter. We also unpack Saracens’ win over Gloucester, why Maro Itoje and Ben Earl look red hot, and why Leicester’s win over Sale comes with a serious late season problem at fly half. We finish with England’s training camp squad, the debate around Bernhard Janse van Rensburg, and our picks for a best XV plus a frightening “absent” XV that shows just how deep England rugby can be.

If you enjoy smart, honest rugby chat, subscribe, share the pod with a mate, and leave us a review. Who makes your England starting XV from that camp squad?

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Transcript

Welcome And Club Dinner Tales

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the rocks and nobles. That's right. It's the fans favourite rugby podcast brought to you by the fans favourite rugby podcast hosts. It's me, Dave, joined by Rory. Rory, say hello to our lovely, lovely listeners.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello. Hello, David. Hello, listeners. Hello, everybody. Welcome once again to another week of Rocks, Moles, and Oval Balls.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Ah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

No way, David.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

We're back, we're back. Yeah, I'm good, I'm good. I've had a a weekend of feeling a little bit under the weather, but you know, we won't dwell on the on the negatives. We won't dwell on that. Obviously, there's some lovely rugby to talk about. Um still very much in operation get house ready to move. Still very much in operation being a dad. So, you know, there's there's no such thing as a quiet day, but you know, who wants quiet days when you know there's life's there to be lived, Rory. Life is there to be lived. But my main question to you, Rory. How are you? Because you you're you're facing down the barrel of a rugby-less window of time where you're not playing any of the sport we love. So I'm just kind of treading on eggshells to make sure that you're okay, checking in on you and making sure everything's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Well, I thank you for your concern. Um, yeah, well, we had our end of season players dinner on Saturday. Um, so I'll be entirely frank, David. I'm still not feeling quite right. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Um funny shellfish.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Uh I could be that. All I know is uh on camera I look semi like a corpse still, um, and that doesn't seem to have abated since um Sunday. I was gonna say Sunday morning, but I didn't wake up to about one in the afternoon on Sunday. So I wish I knew what that felt like. Yeah, yeah. Uh yes, strong night. Um but yeah, that'll be my probably last bit of uh bit of work at the club for a little while until um preseason starts. It's always around the corner.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Did you uh did you scoop any merits or accolades, or was it just an opportunity to sing and praise about the three titles you won anyway?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Absolutely, yes. Uh uh, no personal accolades for me this year. I was uh I was handing out um accolades for the Lions, um giving speeches, trying to steal as much limelight as possible. Um, but um no, no person, no personal accolades for me on this occasion. Um but a good night had by all, attended by members of the first team, the lions, the rhinos, and the ladies' team who all had successful seasons.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

It must be a feel-good factor over at I forget the name of your place. The Gables. The Gables. Yeah, it must be Feel Good at the Gables at the moment. It was certainly jolly on Saturday. And a little bit on Sunday morning. Well a little bit on Sunday morning. Well, I'm I'm glad to hear it, Rory. I'm glad to hear it. I'm sure you've got lots of things planned to keep you busy in the meantime and wait to wait for the season ahead. Uh but we're just gonna have to find some other topic for us to talk about at the start of these episodes before we get into the real stuff. Because now your season's finished, I don't know what we're gonna talk about. Um I'm gonna have to find some hobbies. Yeah, in our you know, aforementioned banter section, it's hard, it's hard to have banter when you don't have topics to banter over because we're so good at that.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah, let's let's be frank, the the aforementioned banter section was the weekly lions report.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

I feel that is a fair assessment. A fair assessment indeed. Um saying that, we still have a podcast to do. So I'm gonna segue away from the banter section, and um you know, we've got a fair bit of news going on. There's there's lots of things going on in the world of rugby once again. Uh we have a lovely round of rugby to discuss in the Galleg Prem. And there's a certain international squad training camp squad has been uh announced that we will deep dive into. So that's gonna be knowing the way we like to talk about rugby, Rory, it's gonna be another jam-packed episode.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

We'll try and keep it as elongated as last week's.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Fantastic, fantastic. So strap audience people, you're in for a solid hour and a half, I imagine, of pure rugby noise. But we're gonna go straight into it.

South Africa And Europe Rumours

SPEAKER_02 4:13

We're gonna start off with some news. And the first thing that caught our eye this week, Rory, was the there's there's there's some noise, there's some rumour mill, there's some interesting stuff coming out about South African sides potentially uh leaving the European competition. And um oh no, I hear you shout. But yeah, give us give us your uh give us your view, Rory, and give us a bit of a bit of a background on that.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Well, it came out from the Say R U Chief uh that they are having a meeting in July, I believe, about which competition South African sides should potentially withdraw from. Uh Chief Amongst, which looking like it's going to be the European Champions Cup and European Challenge Cup. Um it's being framed as uh the South African top South African players are playing too much rugby and uh they need to have the opportunity to rest to get away from the game. So it's being framed as a player welfare thing, which uh on the face of it I'm in favour of. I think player welfare is important, and I think there's an argument about um the South African players' calendar, which is effectively a 12-month calendar a lot of the time, um, because of the nature of playing in the rugby championship, uh, which obviously takes place across August, September generally, I think. Uminter internationals, uh, which obviously come hot off the heel of the European Leagues and European Cup competitions. So I think South African teams do have less breaks throughout the year. Um I don't think the number of games plays games played by the top South African players differs wildly from their uh certainly their English and French counterparts. It slightly varies when you go to some of the other nations, but uh the French players I think generally still play the most games, and I think the English and South African ones are pretty comparable. The difference is that they don't get any kind of elongated break. So, for example, if any players on the Lions last year, um most of those were off for anywhere between four and eight weeks after the Lions. So I can see the argument there. I also think there is an argument to say that the South African teams being involved in the European Cups has not been a successful venture. Um logistically, it's been difficult. Um, it's been difficult to get teams consistently taking their strongest sides to South Africa, it's been difficult to get the strongest South African teams to visit uh the Northern Hemisphere on a week-to-week basis, and part of that is down to the format of the competition, which had to be adapted to accommodate the South African teams. Um and part of it, I think, is down to, let's be frank, a fair amount of apathy towards the European competitions in South Africa. It hasn't taken on, they're not, then it hasn't been um braced by the South African public, um, which is uh I actually don't blame them for. You just if you just drop people into competition they've got no real connection to, why would they suddenly start caring so much about it? Yeah, that's fair. Um so I don't blame them for that. Uh there's some Chats of Africa they would like to withdraw their franchises from the URC as well and go back to a curry cup uh format. There are some that would like to go back to the super rugby, all of which I can understand. I think where this actually boils down to is world rugby need to get a global calendar sorted out so that we can align these competitions properly, because at the moment it's too much uh square pegs, round holes, make do amend, just getting by on the current calendar, and there's probably too much rugby being played, which you know, given that we're a rugby player.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Blasphemy.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

It does sound blasphemous, but let me um let me put something to you, David. Okay. Of the contact sports, physical contact sports, the most uh profitable, the one that makes most money is NFL. A regular season of NFL, I think, is 19 games plus playoffs and Super Bowl. Yeah, it's half a year. So I think well, it's it's not even that, it goes on for about four months. Yeah um and that doesn't seem to be a problem for for NFL fans. They do have college ball and there's other things going on around it they can watch uh at other times of the year, but actually, brevity of a season isn't necessarily the problem. More games does not equal more quality, and I think we've particularly the European competitions have probably made this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

I'm glad you didn't draw the comparison to the NHL because they play hundreds of games in a year and play back to back about four games a week. But I I take your point, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Well, base yeah, baseball's a great example of that. You know, they they play they play s many more games than that. Well, let me tell you, not all of those games are sellouts.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

No, no, no, they're not. Well, I I there's definitely something in it about um, like you say, the global calendar, making it so there is a a system or something something in place that ensures players do get a break, that there is almost brings a degree of fairness as well in like the global competition. I I think they are moving towards well, we know they're moving towards it. It's been spoken about some time. I think that's part of this nation's championship that's coming this year, is to try and bring both hemispheres together in various ways. It is going to be the domestic game where it's gonna be a real sticking point because let's face it, rugby is a winter sport traditionally, and in the northern hemisphere, our winter is at a different time to the southern hemisphere. So it's finding that that sweet spot domestically, so that the domestic games in both hemispheres don't suffer or get impacted to a sense where then you're playing almost two different sports in some way. That that's that's the tricky bit that needs to be figured out.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Some uh someone is gonna have to vote against their interests, a turkey's gonna have to vote for Christmas and accept that they'll they're gonna have to take a hit in the short term for the betterment of the game in the long term. And this is the problem with world rugby, it's it's too fractured, it's it's full of too many self-interested parties. Um, so I don't have a great faith that they're gonna manage it anytime soon. They you know they talk about the global calendar and they say it's they say it's on the agenda constantly. You know, we I don't think we're that much closer to to actually arranging one, but perhaps we will get there.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah, I don't know what I don't know what will come first, the global calendar or HS2.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

I really don't know. Uh 2039, they reckon, so they didn't they for the HS2. Um 109 billion. So imagine if we just got a little bit of that just to go into the prem. Just a smidge, just a smidge of that. Just a smidge.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah, how about the the the HS2 Highlanders? How does it sponsor a team or something like that? Yeah. I don't hate it. No, there's worse ideas. Oh dear. But you know, let's uh let's not get detracted from the point South Africa want to pull away from European teams. I did see that some of the comments of the owner of I can't remember which uh team it was now, but one of the owners for the South African franchise has basically said, if you pull the teams out of Champions Cup, I'm pulling my funding because they're basically the owners of the private franchises in South Africa are basically bankrolling these South African teams and surviving, and the South African unions aren't covering all the costs. So I think within South African rugby, we may be getting to a bit of a tete tete and a bit of a crunch point when it comes to domestic the union. Uh and you know, god forbid the South African rugby world isn't necessarily all sunshine and rainbows at times. And right now it doesn't seem to be heading in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Well, it isn't, but they have to do something with the European Cups because it's been somewhat farcical um over the last couple of years. And the South African teams don't seem that intent on partaking in it properly i in any kind of meaningful way. So ultimately I think that that's three good. I mean, to be honest, my gut feel is the South African teams will decide that this venture into Europe hasn't been what they hoped it would be, and will either go to Super Rugby or go back to a curry cup.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

And if they pull out of URC, it'll be really interesting to see what the ripple effect is, because it could lead to the reorganisation of the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup, like we've been talking about. Maybe less ta less teams. It'd be interesting to see the impact it could have on the URC and where they try and either fill the gaps or whether they uh close some of the slots in the league to have a few less fixtures. Could lead to that British and Irish League we were talking about. Could lead to the British and Irish League. So this could be like the first domino in what could be a significant level of change that could impact British British domestic rugby as well. So, listeners, keep your eyes on developments in South African rugby and where they decide to put out their franchises in the years ahead, because it could have quite a big impact on the sport we love. That's the headline, people. Um moving on in a continued news section.

Player Welfare And Global Calendar

SPEAKER_02 13:26

We would not be doing our part if we didn't be didn't be? If we weren't giving our flowers and our congratulations and our rounds of applause to the Red Roses for once again getting another grad slab in the Women's Six Nations.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, and in style. Yeah, it has to be said. Um they talked before the tournament about bringing uh a new attacking style and moving away from the forward-dominated um style that got them the World Cup. I think by the end of the tournament you see the fruits of that. They are playing some genuinely very attractive rugby. Um, a tough battle against the the French team on Sunday, um, who took an early lead. But the character that that Red Rosa side is beyond reproach at this point. They are they are winners, they know how to win, and it is a formidable winning machine they've built at the moment. Um, there are the usual criticisms of another England win that are all too predictable. What I would say to anyone who thinks that women's rugby is just solely going to be dominated by England, have a look at some of the age grade results that have come through recently. Um some will argue worrying signs for for England, others will argue very positive signs for the strengthening of the likes of France and Italy and Ireland, um, who have all taken scalps at the youth uh level against England. Um I think you're gonna see Sitting and Dominance be challenged very heavily uh in future years. Um but the Red Roses themselves deserve all the congratulations for this one. Um, another monstrous, um, monstrous performance from them, absolutely dominating the the competition in the end. Um very disappointed has only come fourth in our fantasy league this year, David. Had some good weeks, but uh such as life, couldn't quite uh couldn't quite top off the league. Um but some of the performance for the for the Red Roses, some of the some of the um usual faces really putting down, even though there were a lot of players missing from the World Cup side and even from the start of the tournament. But still the likes of Jess Breach, uh Ellie Kildun, uh Meg Jones, Lucy Packer, um Holly Herson, Zoe Harrison, you know, all still just performing at such a high level. Um, I think you know the this this winning machine will roll on for a little while yet, but there are signs on the horizon that there are teams coming to challenge.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Yeah, and I I think we should be encouraging the Red Roses to keep on improving and keep on being this rolling machine of victories because it it's setting the level that these other nations that are they're working towards, but if they keep if they keep making improvements and upping their own level, it makes the gap that they need to cover far greater. And it means when when that time comes when the French size, the Italian size, the Irish size, they do get to the level of the red roses, the level and standard of women's rugby at the international level is going to be so good. Uh and I don't think it's gonna be far off when the red roses aren't going to be the only the only ones winning trophies because I think uh especially France, uh I I feel like they are not going to be too far off being real challenges. So yeah, huge congratulations to the Red Roses. Um they deserve every bit of applaudit and any sorts of congratulations. They get perfect timing in the run-up to the first ever women's lions tour, which I suspect a lot of Red Roses to be part of. And you know, they've they've just got to enjoy it while they're in um while they're in it, because being part of such a successful team doesn't happen for many sports people in their lives. So they just keep raising the bar. Just keep raising the bar. Now it it feels like a really awkward segue into the next news topic, but there isn't really a good way of segueing

Scott Hastings Tribute

SPEAKER_02 17:17

it to the next one. Obviously, it's the the sad news around Scott Hastings.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Um yeah, uh one of the finest players um for Scotland, obviously, uh his heyday was slightly before our time, um, but he was part of the last Scottish side to win a Grand Slam in 1990, I think it was. Um, alongside uh Gavin Hastings. Um, no, really sad news. Um, came a bit out of the blue, only 61, no age, is it? No. Um complications from existing conditions. Um, no, very sad news for for Scottish rugby um and for rugby in general, really. Um, all of the um outpouring of affection towards Scott has been uh unequivocal about what a lovely bloke he was, um, which you know speaks volumes of the man. Um, but no, very, very sad news, and I thought it's certainly not news that we should have let um have let gone past without um without mentioning because it's uh um it's a big loss to the world of world of rugby. Um and I'm sure there'll be some um time set aside to to mourn him in uh north of the border and in the wider rugby community as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Oh absolutely. I think I think I think one of the horrible things about us getting older, Rory, is a lot of these names that kind of we've grown up with. Um hopefully there's not going to be more, but you know, Scott Hastings is a name I recognise from listening to my dad talk about rugby. It was like his time was just before our time, but you you hear stories about how good Scotland were in in like the late 80s, early nineties, and like the Hastings brothers being a huge part of that. So when you hear about like this sort of news, it was kind of brings you back down to earth, makes you realise that rugby is just a sport, and um like I said at the very start, life life is precious, life's for living, and hopefully um it's uh there's an opportunity for people to use it yet to mourn and think about someone who's had such a big impact on the sport, especially north of the border. But yes, and again, another tricky segue um out of some sad news into a coaching appointment

England Add A Back Three Coach

SPEAKER_02 19:18

now. You need to figure out better segues between these topics, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Umatically has been it's been tricky.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

It's tricky, but an ex-Scottish international has been moved into the English coaching ticket, full-time, Byron McGuan being assigned quite an interesting coaching role, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Very niche, very niche addition to the ever uh ever moving England rugby coaching carousel. Uh he has joined the setup as I get this right, collisions, uh, aerial skills, and general back three coach.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Um now, look, all those are important skills that need coaching. Um, I'm not a hundred percent certain you need another coach to fill those skills. You have an attack coach, you have a defence coach, you have a scrum coach, uh, you have obviously your strength and conditioning coaches, is another voice. I don't know. One of the one of the questions that was put towards um the underperforming England side in the Six Nations was were they getting confused with too many voices, too many changing voices in the changing room. I know what I'm gonna do. Add another voice, add another voice, yeah. Um also they've got a forwards coach while Joe Al Abdis, I think, is still there, um, at least ostensibly for the time being. Um, yeah, it's it's difficult. I I mean, what what strikes me with this is I'm not saying that you can't coach international players, but my assumption, and again, I could be completely wrong, and I'm feel free to challenge me on this, David. My assumption with what an international coaching setup needs, barring the period before a World Cup when you get what is it, sort of eight, ten weeks with the players, something like that. With the England team, you actually only get very short periods of time in which you have the players. You might get a week or two weeks before um you start having fixtures. And the old three-day training camp. Three-day training camp, as we'll touch on later. Um, how much coaching can you actually possibly do with these players in that time? And if these are meant to be international standard players, do they need coaching, that kind of granular level of skill, or is that something that you can say, when you're away with your clubs, keep working on this because it's a skill you're gonna need to be really, really good at for international rugby. And then when you come into the international setup, is it not just a case of getting everyone aligned behind a game plan and getting them motivated? Am I am I wrong for thinking this? That that you actually how much coaching could you possibly do with players at this at that level in that amount of time?

SPEAKER_02 21:56

I feel it's a very fair challenge, uh, particularly. If we were to be cynical around it, uh to bring a coach into the three players and positions on the pitch that Steve Borfwick traditionally hasn't made the most of. Um seems a bit redundant getting a coach in to coach the three players he doesn't seem to have a plan to get the ball in the hands of. Yeah, is it just there to support their loneliness? Yeah, basically, he's basically a conditioning coach to how to chase kicks, uh, as much as

Red Roses Grand Slam Praise

SPEAKER_02 22:23

I gather. Um, but I I think you're quite right to make that criticism. It does feel like, are we just moving into too many cooks? And it's it I I I worry it's gonna be too many voices. Like even even look at most club sites, they don't have as many coaches as the England squad does. So why are they not?

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I guess that's a budget thing, but I mean, surely surely the assumption is I'm not saying if you get picked for international rugby, you're a complete player and there's nothing you could ever improve on. But surely the assumption is if you're international level, particularly international level, in a tier one nation, you're being picked because you're good enough to play international rugby. That should be the idea, or you think they think that you're going to be good enough to play international rugby. So surely what you're just trying to get in there is what's your game plan, what you're doing in each area of the field, um, set moves, because you can you can train those, and uh mo motivation, you know, getting behind the badge, all that kind of stuff. Like so for that you'd need, I mean, yeah, a head coach or manager, or whatever you want to call it, coordinating it, an attack coach, a defence coach, and maybe a Ford a set piece coach. Yeah. Why do you need more than that? Why would you need more than that? And realistically, I don't know. For a short period of time, why do you need more than those that those voices?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I I don't know. And I and if you think about it, in a camp now, it means that the squad's gonna be so split up having their own individual specialist sessions. How are you gonna build like the flow and the cue of the team being able to play together and be on the same hymn sheet? If you're spending your entire training sessions up in different little pockets, like oh, the back three players are over there of Byron, oh the centres, the fly off the scrub after over with Lee Blackett, uh the back row of Joe Al Ab making sure they know how to do a ruck, and then all the props are with whoever's in charge of the scrub at the moment. Uh Tom Harrison. Tom Harrison. Like, how are they supposed to come together as a team?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

I mean, there must be points. I mean, they've got 42 players in this squad. I mean, some of them just aren't gonna meet all the other players, are they? It's all got time.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Well, I imagine that's why it's three days, because day one is just the old meet and greet, two is a bit of training, and three is getting everyone's number.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, to two is just sort of uh you know handing out your uh your roster for which coach you're gonna be with that day.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I just find it I just find it implausible that you'd need anything more than you know three or four coaches max.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

I agree, I agree. It it feels overkill, but I will say to counter all that, throwback to last summer or the summer before, where Byron McGriggan was on the coaching ticket for the Argentina and USA tour, and we were saying afterwards we need to figure out a way to get the likes of him into the coaching team more permanently.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

I'm not question yeah, I'm not questioning that he's a he's a bad coach. He but he was on the Argentina Tour as defence coach.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

It was it was Lee Blackett and him.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Do you know what I mean? Like you know Isn't Richard Wrigglesworth still in the coaching team as well? He's the defence coach. He went from attack coach to defence coach. Oh yeah, that makes sense. Presumably because he's just equally good at both. I don't know. Scroll half's renowned for their defensive ability, that's fine. Well, I mean, I don't know. I just find I mean, of course you're and then you've got Kevin Simfield, who seems to be Vibe's coach. To be fair, he's pretty good at that. No, I look, I'm not saying get rid of Kevin Sinfield, I'd I just have Ken Sinfield in charge of everything, frankly. But I don't know, I just find it's odd that you need that many coaches.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

No, I I completely agree. Well, proof will be of the pudding. Let's see how they fare this this summer.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Um listener, if you disagree with me, get in touch. I'd I I'd genuinely be interested to hear, particularly from anyone who's been in anything akin to this kind of environment. Just coaches in general.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Like, how does it work?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Or coaches in general. Just give me an idea as to why you might possibly need this many different voices for this type of um setup. I'm just I'd genuinely be interested to hear it. Yeah, yeah, likewise.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

If you know how to get in touch with us, if you don't, we have an email address, ruxmallsoverballs at outlook.com. You can text us or the text number if you press on the link in the episode description. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, or wherever YouTube. Drop us a message, coaches. We want to hear what you think. But we go from the news and we move swiftly into prem rugby action.

Saints Smash Bristol In Record Rout

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Let's get into it. And I'm a bit happier to start this week off Rory compared to last week.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Well, David, before you get too happy about it, I think it's only fair, as we have done with other blowouts in this season, you know, we treat it with the same level of contempt and we we don't focus on it, we just move on to another game.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

No.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

No, no, no, no. We we we we talk about Northampton Saints breaking records, Rory. We can we don't ignore records being broken.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Well, I think look, the long and short of it is Bristol scored the best tries. Um they were absolutely stitched up by the referee with uh particularly the Revolver yellow card. I thought it was very unfair. Um, and um, you know, ultimately, you know, they they was you they can't beat 16 men.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Oh, Rory, Rory, Rory. You little troll. You know, you know that Saints performance would have beaten Bristol with 16 men. Let's face it. That Saints was so good. Now I'm not denying the fact that it was one of those occasions where it felt like every single bounce of the ball went in the Saints' favour. I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm not ignoring the fact that Bristol did seem to get on the wrong side of Luke Pierce. That that stern look he gave Fitz Harding for trying to question the thing, and he was basically sent the captain away because he didn't want to hear him. I'm not ignoring all that, but that does not take away from that Northampton Saints force, especially the first half, which was absolutely just spectacular. It's what's been brewing for a while now, in that we've been saying since Week Stations, it's just not been clicking for Northampton. They couldn't they couldn't piece the phases together, they were dropping balls. This was the game it clicked, and I knew it in the back of my mind the set the second it clicked it was gonna be something special. I didn't think it was gonna be this special. 94 points?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

94-33 it was, yes, 61-14 at half time. Yeah, um, yeah, look all all trolling aside. Um it was uh it was sort of rugby out of this world. Um don't get me wrong, Bristol Bristol were bad. Mitigation being I've played against better defences this year for the Lions than Bristol put up on on Friday night. I mean, there the disorganisation after look, Saints move the ball around well. I'm not I'm not denying that. Like Saints move the ball around well, the the running lines off the ball are fantastic. I mean, what Saints are are able to do ball in hand is is unmatched um by anyone in the league. Um, probably the closest ones would have been Bristol um before before Friday. But you know, Saints at their absolute best have this sort of um almost telepathic ability to read every each other's running lines. Um, you know, I take the uh the Callum chick try as a good example. Actually, you know, Finn Smith makes the break, he actually misses the Coles um Coles running inside. But the fact that Coles was there on the inside, you know, the second robbers volloping along with with the with the fly half, then throws the big wide pass out of Freeman, who's tracking it, tracking it wide, who puts the grubber kick through and chicks their supporting to get it over the line. You know, it's everyone's just sort of flowing in one direction with Saints or in one purpose, I should say. Um you know, uh, I think it's is it uh Hendy's first try, Pollock makes the makes the break. I mean, where the Bristol defence were, I do not know. But Pollock makes the break and throws a really lovely pass out wide. You know, this that's Pollock, for me, that's Pollock at his best when he's showing that he's a bat rower with the skills of a of a 12.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Um it was definitely his best game of the season, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yeah, um, you know, when he's when he's playing like that, actually, everything else kind of fades into the uh into the background, um, because the front and the and the the personality as as important as those things are, and you know, as much as we've enjoyed them at times, actually, you can boil it back down to no, he is just a fantastic player. Um, and he was he did show that really well on on Friday. Um I thought Rory Hutchinson at um 12 was magnificent, just seemed to be everywhere. Um Bagtu tries himself. Um, so uh McParland, another fantastic performance from him. I mean, he's as he got himself into the training squad. He is he is rapidly putting his hand up to get a shot this summer. Um, but all of that has to be slightly tempered by the fact that Bristol, after one phase, one carry, one offload, their defence just fell into disarray. They got so narrow. There was, I mean, the the first Tenny tries a good example. It's a you know, it's a really good break and pass from Pollock, but he's only got to throw it over one man because seemingly 13, 14 Bristol players are the other side of the posts.

unknown 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

How has that happened? Yeah, how have you how has this happened so quickly? And they were getting pulled over. You know, there were people were breaking up the fringes, people were breaking up wide, people they were flooding through midfield, you know. One off, I think it was it might be Pollock's try, uh, where McParland snipes up the fringe, just reaches around the back and offloads it, and there's two Saints players ready to catch the pass. Players have barely half turned to track it, yeah, and Saints are already going under the sticks again. Um baffling, baffling defensive performance of Bristol. And um I don't think it's surprising after a result like that, and actually the way the season's ending for Bristol, that there are um questions being asked now as to whether Pat Lamb's on the brink of leaving Bristol, which you know at points in the season would have been unthinkable because at times they've been fantastic, you know, and they've got some really good wins, but that performance just and I know they've got a lot of injuries, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I know that it's it's it's been madness how bad the injury crisis has been for Bristol all season, but you can't really tribute that to just the lack of that doesn't the organisation lack of organisation, the defensive shape that that should be drilled into every player, regardless of where they are in the depth chart of the rugby squad. Um and and you look at the starting team for Bristol, it wasn't it wasn't a weak team, it was a pretty strong.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

It's a pretty strong, you know, it's not got everyone they'd want on the pitch, but it's not a million miles off. And you know, I mean Rich Lane was hauled off after 30 minutes because he was just getting tennis like that. And Shanza Power, I really like Rich Lane. I think he's one of those players, you know, almost plucked from obscurity from the championship, one of those really good money ball signings that some clubs have managed to pull together in the last couple of years, and he's a really, really good example of it. Um, but he was he was at sixes and sevens in this one.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Um I I just think against that Northampton back line, I think they spotted that on this occasion, like pace-wise, he just didn't have it to match Freeman or Hendy, and I think they'd identified that every time they got through and they just isolated him, it was like a guaranteed try. But obviously it wasn't just his fault because the the tries kept coming once they took him off. Um yeah, I did feel a bit bad for him.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I think he was um maybe scapegoated is too harsh, but um or too much of a let off, maybe. Um but you know, that whole performance just smacked of throwing in the towel. I mean Revuvo, you know, I I will maintain the Revuvu um yellow card for the knock-on, deliberate knock-on, was harsh. He went with two hands. I don't think that's I don't think that's a yellow card.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

I have I have a slightly different view because he he may have gone with two hands, but you look at the shape of his hands, it was more of a charge down than an attempted catch. So even so even if you've gone with two hands, that's not trying to catch the ball, that's just blocking the ball with two hands. And it was a potentially try stopping intervention. So by the letter of the law, it's a yellow card.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Luke Pierce is a good referee, didn't even look at a replay. He's only he noticed that it was a charge, you know, that Revu's hands weren't exactly in a catching position.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

In regards to that, I I still don't think it means it's the wrong decision because Luke Pierce didn't look at it again. I think on upon a replay, it doesn't look like an attempted catch, is my point.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Maybe. I mean, I'm it's supposed to be a genuine attempt to catch the ball, that's the difference. It didn't look like it to me. I mean, it might have been a bad attempt to catch it, but you know, I I I I think I think it's harsh. But you know, regardless, you're gonna have 14 men, you don't you that's not an excuse to ship three tries in 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

No, no, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Um, it's just not. Um, no, I mean, baffling performance with Bristol. And I think you know, Pat Lamb's got some serious questions. He'll have some questions for the players, and Jordan. And he's got some questions to answer himself, I suspect. Um, both internally and maybe to himself as to whether he's getting the tune out of these players that he should be. Um, but from a Saints perspective, I mean, yeah, scary, scary performance, really.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Uh yes, it was it needed to be a reaction to the week before against Leicester, put it that way. And we certainly certainly got one.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Uh yeah, you got the reaction you were well, you got more than uh what you would have bargained for, I suspect, in terms of reaction.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah. So yeah, I'm chuffed to bits, Rory. Um chuffed to bits. But yeah, we won't dwell on it too much longer. As much as I'd love to talk about that game in much more detail. There's a few other games.

Bath Coast Past Newcastle

SPEAKER_02 36:10

I I would say this this weekend again was another one where there's quite a few big scores leading us into the next game, which was Bath up against the Newcastle Red Bulls, which again, not a glowing indictment to um can I be honest, David?

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I'm I the Red Bulls thing's lost its shine for me now after this season. I mean, there were points in the first half of the season where I really thought they were building towards pulling something together, um, and now it's more like it's a little tragic now, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

It it's every game you watch for them in, it it it it becomes more and more difficult. The thing that I really struggle with is that I can't help but think back to the game where they came to Franklin's Gardens and gave Northampton one hell of a match. A scare. A real scare and they played in them, but and it's just been a drastic downward slope since that point. And there's not there's no signs of it changing. It's it's well, we all know what's going on at Red Bulls, everyone's aware of what's going on at Red Bulls. It's quite clearly obvious that a number of players are probably throwing in the towel either because their careers are coming to an end, they're looking for a job and they don't want to get injured, or they just know that like their heart's not in it because Red Bulls aren't backing them. And Red Bulls have decided that they're gonna pick interesting squads, they're testing some young younger players. It doesn't seem like they're even trying to win games with some of their squad selections.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

It's just yeah, it's just Olympic all the end of the season. I mean, again, it's hardly even worth um analysing as a game, if I'm honest. I mean, um Tom Dunn gets himself a harsh red card, I think a fairly harsh red card. Um I don't think I didn't think it was a it was a red, I thought it was a yellow, but yeah, yeah, it's it's always tricky with those sorts of ones, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Because again, letter of the law, it's it's that referee's um perception of mitigation and whether something's high danger or not high danger. It it seems to me that it can change from ref to ref. And when it comes to the difference between red and yellow cards, does that feel right? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

It it it didn't to me, but to be honest, didn't have a very game difference learned. Um Arundel just tap dancing his way to the try-line half the time. Um Frost ran one in from 50 minutes. I'm not being funny, Dan Frost is a good player, he's and he's got good wheels for a hooker, but the fact that he managed to go half the length of the pitch untouched smacks of a lack of effort on the Red Bull's part to me, and that was how it read. Um I just felt watching this one, I just felt like the end of the season can't come soon enough for them, and they're not the only club um by any stretch, but the end of the season clearly can't come soon enough. There's some players there that have given up the hope, I think, of of remaining in the Prem next season. Um I will uh put a slight shout out to Brocklebank's um Travella assist for Hurl dribbling it past uh I think it's Kraris, possibly, um, which was a nice little flick. But um other than that, I mean this was a it was just a blowout, and there's and it didn't, you know, I suppose from Bart's perspective, it was maybe nice to get some backs in on the in on the act. Yeah, um a rare occasion. A rare occasion, but I don't know, there's just nothing really to say. You can't really say anything about this, because at this point, I think at this point everyone will just quite like to ignore the Red Bulls and just wait until next season when we think they're gonna be better.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yeah, well, if they're not better, serious questions will be asked. Um I'd be really intrigued to know what's going on in the boardrooms in uh Salzburg or Vienna or wherever the Red Bull is based, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Do you know what? I'll bet they're not even bothering to look.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

I'll bet I'll bet they've gone I bet someone would have said to them, this season's gonna be crap. We've we've scraped together a squad, don't worry about it, we'll sort out next year.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Give us give us 24 months before coming in and checking on us and giving us a performance review. And um yeah. I I I hope for the sake of the competition that they are a more competitive side next year because it's it's games like this, especially when we're coming to like a crunch point in the season where positions are becoming important when a side gets such a gimme five points. Like I I I know someone might argue, oh Saints put 90 on Bristol, but no one was expecting that. Everyone was expecting Bristol to put 60 odd points on Newcastle, and that's exactly what they did, and that's Bath not really getting out of third gear. Like I'm I'm pr I'm pretty confident that they were under the instruction to use it as a defensive drill because Bath actually made more tackles than Newcastle, but I just think it's because they thought, well, let's just use it as an opportunity to hone our defence, and that's what they did. It was just it was it was an exercise in counter punching, and they kept counterpunching and scoring tries, and then they just soaked up, hone their defence, counterpunch, score another try, go again. They didn't even try that hard at scrum time, like Tom DeToy was up against on a Hancock on his prem debut, uh like a 22-year-old prop who hasn't been given much time. Either he's a lot better than we thought, or Tom DeToy was to stop trying that hard because there wasn't too much of a competition at scrum time.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

I um yeah, I just get the impression they weren't they weren't really giving it their role and they because they didn't need to. Yeah, and you don't you don't in those games, you just don't, you know. I've been involved in blowouts. Um I've been on the receiving end of blowouts, don't get me wrong, but I've been involved in blowouts, and you just in the end you're you're coasting.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Yeah, yeah, it's um yeah, not the best advert for the competition, in which case we move on swiftly to the next game, which is uh turn up for the books, Rory.

Quins Stun Chiefs With Huge Fightback

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Over at the Allianz, the Twickenham Harlequins up against the Extra Chiefs, and it's safe to say we were very wrong in our prediction here, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Well, we were. I mean, you know, I think we did caveat that Quinns are often better at HQ than they are, uh than their form often suggests. But no, I didn't see this coming. I and I'll be honest, after the first half, um, or really the first half an hour when Chiefs have have gone four tries up, I really didn't see this coming. I mean, um Cannibal Riddle scores after six minutes with a really nice crossfield from Skinner, but it's the way that that came about, it was Queens actually started quite well with the ball, but the Chiefs D'd up well, stole the ball, box kicked it, won the ball back, won a penalty, went to the lineup more in the corner, mauled it well, got penalty advantage, and then crossfield to uh to riddle to score it. And that blueprint immediately just screamed, this is gonna be another blow-up, because that was incredibly easy, and Chiefs barely had to get a third gear, they just had to play their play their patterns that they played for a lot of this season, and they would just score to try it, you know, score and tries at will. Um, you know, Varney then scores a few minutes later. Um, they basically get the ball to Paul Brown Bampo, who flattens poor Lucas Friday, and then I think it's Marcus Smith in the backfield, yeah. Uh offloads it to Slade and uh who picks off the last defender and and puts Varney under the sticks. And you know, that first 10 minutes was just like right, Peace just needs to go through the motions there because Quinn's haven't turned up again. Um and then it's slightly turned if you if you take out that uh first 10 minutes, the uh the rest of the half is uh actually won by Quinn's, um 14 1412, I think, or 14 10. Um and once Quinn sort of turned it around uh and and sort of Got into the game, they started to look really impressive. Um, you know, Kenningham scores a try that's very um uh uh well quite classic Queens in the sense of they win a turnover penalty, they they've they're usually good at the breakdown. Kenningham wins, I think it is it wins the turnout penalty. They go to the line out mole, strong mall, but then Kenningham picks the ball up around the fringes of the next ruck and dives over. Um and it looks sort of like Queens have got a foothold in the game, but then Chiefs go back to the other end of the field, they win, they win a penalty at the breakdown and pull off this really well constructed line out move where Varney peels around the front, isolates Lucas Friday, and gives it to the hooker who barrels over. I mean, Lucas Friday's a really good player who I'm really excited to see develop, but he's not getting any bigger than what he is now, and he got flattened a couple of times in this game. Yeah, they definitely identified that, didn't they? Um then Ikitao scores pretty hard line through three defenders. But Quinn's were definitely back in the game at this point. Um Northmore scores after about 35 minutes, and they nearly get another try right on halftime. But Elliot Williams' try was really harshly ruled out for a knock-on when I think in that it was it was a pixel of difference between the the his hand and the ball. I think you just give it at that point. I would have given it. Um but yeah, 14-24. I mean, I thought Quinns had improved in the half and Willing Strong, but I assumed Chiefs would just keep out in front and probably just keep just you know keep keep Quinns at harm at arm's length. Um but the second half performance by Quinns, I mean, have they played better this season?

SPEAKER_02 45:34

It's definitely the best I've seen them. It's definitely the most it felt like it's the most I've seen them playing with purpose, and it felt like that they were they'd found that oomph, that that extra metre or two in the carry, and they had that breathless energy that the best Quins teams have had over the last five, six years. Yeah. That has kind of been missing all season. Um I do have my own theory on what's happened in this particular game, and I don't think it's it's fairly ominous from a chief's perspective. I was looking at um so I was looking at the stats for kind of playing time played by the the main players for each team. So for Extra, for instance, if you if you were to take the top 15 players and their playing minutes, they average out around 875 minutes across the top 15 players. That's about 125 minutes more than pretty much every other team, which means that they are not rotating the squad. They are the team that does the least amount of subs. They've had several games where they've only done two or three subs that just kept the players away. I wonder whether we are seeing a little bit of burnout. We heard all about their pre-season where they absolutely kind of caned themselves with fitness to make sure they were the fittest team of all. I wonder whether they are feeling the the downside of that, where it's been a long season for them with very little rotation. I think some of the players maybe. Well, Baxter alluded to this, innit?

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yeah, Baxter alluded to this in some of his post-game comments. Um I think that's probably that's probably part of it. Um, and I think you're starting to see if you look at their bench, you know, there are some strong names on there, like obviously Fayo Bosa was on the bench, Dweber was on the bench, uh, Chambadzi, Toyima. If the other names, Hayden Wood, Kens, Wally Brady, uh, Burger, not the names that you necessarily expect to see on the Exeter bench. And I'm I think you might have hit the nail on the head that they're reaching that kind of apex of the season where the squad can't quite handle the load that's been put on it. Um, but that's not to take anything away from Quinn's because I mean you mentioned the breathless quality, I mean, some names that that really speak to that. I mean, Sam Riley was fantastic, I thought. Yeah. Um, he's had some he's been around a while, Sam Riley, and he's um he's got some really good physical attributes. You know, he's really mobile, but he's not quite kicked on to take on that kind of start in birth at Hooker. Um, obviously behind Jack Walker and George Turner for most of this season. Um got the opportunity to start today through, I assume, injuries. Really, really good in the loose. I thought, really dangerous in the loose. Um, you know, he got um he got close to getting bagged a couple of tries himself. I thought Luke Northmore uh looked excellent uh in this game, showing that what a good player he is at his best, which we haven't seen lots of this season, but at his best, he's actually a fantastic 13, isn't he?

SPEAKER_02 48:27

I I think him alongside Brynn Bradley seems to be something that might be working for them.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

It seems to look good. I mean, and you know, imagine they've they've got Wagorn, they've got Oscar Beards, you know, they've got good players to get to slot in there, but that that starting pair at the weekend were really, really good. Um, but for me, the outstanding players in this one were Charlie Culling himself and Alex Donbrandt, who physically dominated everything they did.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

So they it's almost like it's almost like an England selection was counted like riding on it. It's where where this where has this come from?

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Well, there is I mean, to be fair to Donbrandt, him and Merley probably have been the two players sort of carrying what was left of the banner for Quinn's this season. Um China Khan himself, I think, has gone missing at times, but in this game he was really, really involved and really powerful. But Don Brandt I thought was thought was excellent. Um and the general physicality, you know, was was brilliant. I mean, the did you see the um it was the Oli Streeter hit, I think it was on Hooper. Um there was one where Northmore absolutely flattened Stephen Varney. Um Zach Carr on Paul Brownpo where he showed him the shoulder to go for and he went for the opposite one and absolutely flattened him. Yeah, absolutely let it. You know, he was filling in there because they were out of locks.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Um I'll tell you what though, I'll tell you what before Zach Carr and Elliot Williams hats off to those two because they they play in the most physical positions on a rugby pitch, and they're both so Elliot Williams is like we've spoken about it before, he's 18 years old. Zach Carr aren't be more than 2021. These are two young lads at the very start of their career being asked to fill in, and the most physically you know the the requirements of what's needed on the pitch is so physically dominant and they need to be strong and have presence and to be doing it at the age they are at is credit to them. I think it's been a real tough season for Quins. But if there is any glimmer of positivity, it's how some of the younger players are starting to stand up and put their hands up to be, well, we should be starters next year. And yeah, I think that's that's the one Slytherin Hope Quinn should take from this year for sure.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

No, I agree, I completely agree. Yeah, I think Zach Carr, Elick Williams, um I think Will Hobson, I'm not sure how young Will Hobson is, because it's hard to tell by looking at him, but he's not been frontline for for very long. Um, and he's been excellent.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Um he's only 23, so yeah, he's still young and property.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

So young for a prop. Um yeah, Brim Bradley, and so you know, Waghorn, I think when he was fit, was very good. Um, you know, that Gwyns have a good academy that produces a lot of good young players, and I I would expect them to continue doing so. I know they were talking Zach Carr up a lot early in the season, but I think he's he's actually an eight by trade.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Um, but they were talking about how he's been pulling up trees and training earlier on the season, and he yeah, this this game really I think was a bit of a coming of age um moment for him in you know, announcing himself in the prem. And I suspect he'll get a lot more minutes next year. Um, Olli Streeter, we expect to see him get a lot more minutes. He's he looks like he's gonna be an absolute beast at tight head. Um, but I don't think we should move on from this game before we mention Boris Wenger getting the 25-meter intercept.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Oh, what a good one. The look on his little face. Oh, he was I was so happy.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

I mean he looks he looked like the most delighted pug in the puppy store, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Oh, it's of all players. What a read, by the way. Yeah, great read.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Great read. I'll tell you what, he looked he looks like he slimmed down a bit actually from the start of the season.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

Well, you would do once you've done a 25-meter intercept run, you will still do that.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Yeah, because he was it was falling off him as he was going under the uh going under the sticks. Um, but yeah, lovely read and finish, and you could see how everyone was uh was delighted for him. The boys got right around him for that one. Um but I mean excellent performance by Quinn's. I mean, you know, they have been by and large rubbish this year. Um but this was I I think their best performance. I can't think of a better one. I mean, they um they obviously beat Saracens early on in the year, which was up there for one of their better performances, but this was properly, properly good.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yes, and in fact, I'm incredibly grateful for it because it has meant that there is still a little bit of narrative in the top four chase going into the final couple of rounds.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Yeah, well look, there's five points between fourth and sixth, and um well, I mean this one finished 41-24 to Quinn's. Um, sadly for me, we should probably move on to one of the other challenges for that final playoff berth.

Saracens Too Sharp For Gloucester

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Yes. Uh your the the game that you said admitted last week, you weren't looking forward to the Gloucester trip to the Stonex to face the Saracens who are in a rich form at the moment. Um, how would you like to address this one, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Well, look, I mean, in the one sense, I'm I'm obviously very unhappy with the way this game panned out. Um, and I think there's a lot of very legitimate criticism that can be levelled at the way Gloucester approached this game and the way they played it. I think they were um, you know, they said it on comms, you know, they were giving up three pointers early on, like they didn't believe they could win it playing that way. Um, they were they seemed to lose their shape in attack at times far too easily. The set piece was the weakest it's been for some weeks.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

It went back to the start of the season, Gloucester at the line out for sure.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah, uh, which can happen, can happen in the game like that. We were really, really profligate with the chance we had, you know, we did actually end up with a reasonable amount of territory and red zone entries and possession, and we weren't good enough with it. Um, gave the ball away way too easily. Um, and at times we let Saracen score tries far too easily as well. Um the Shagan's first try, you know, we lose a line out in Saracen's 22, Fergus Burke breaks, gives it to Malins, who gives it to Shagan, they score in the corner, just end-to-end, way too easy. Um, they were very strong at the breakdown, Maratoge in particular, Ben Earl as well. I think I think Atoji and Earl are looking red hot form at the moment. They were they were outstanding. I mean Maratoge was like every time someone ran into him, apart from Arthur Clark, everyone else who ran into him just seemed to fall at the floor. Yeah, um, he was he was iron in this one, iron Atoje. Um Ben Earl was a nuisance the whole game, scored a good try as well. Um uh just after the half time. Um, again, after Scotland after Glasgow, oh god, after Gloucester lose a lineup. Um there's there's a lot of very, very legitimate criticisms of the Gloss performance. But off the back of this season, there's also there was also sort of enough there for me to say, look, we're obviously not very good at the moment, haven't been very good, but there's also enough good stuff going on at times where you go, well, if they could pull together an 80-minute performance performing like they did just there for that 30-second period, they'd they'd actually be very, very good. And although that's not the strongest um backing of a team, I think I think there's raw ingredients to this Gloucester side that still um still show promise. I still I think Ben Loder was good again. Yeah, I thought Charlie Atkinson was good again. I thought Max Llewellyn was good again. Um, at the times when when we actually got phases together, they were all really, really prominent. Well Joseph got a couple of good tries. Um I thought Josiah Roberts Giroud, when he came on early for George Barton, did did pretty well, particularly in defence, um, tackled really well. I think a lot of the back line actually, when we did get go forward, at times looked really dangerous. The difficulty is um the packs seem to either lose effort or lose understanding of what where they're meant to be going pretty quick. We just seem to run out of forward runners really quickly. Yeah, there was a few moments where I was like, Oh, oh, what do I do now? What do I do now? Oh, I'll just run into contact. Yeah, because yeah, because people haven't made the effort off the ball to to give Charlie an option or whatever it might be. Um, you know, I thought Arthur Clark was brilliant. He carried extremely he carried his carries through contact. Um, you know, I know he's a big bloke, but for a second row, he's got some real carrying power, which kind of you know, he's he doesn't necessarily look like someone who's gonna be the most outstanding athlete in the team. He's good, you know, he's quite oddly proportioned, you know, he's six foot ten, but his carrying was was excellent. Um I think Venter's looking a lot better. Will Treno grafts and grafts and grafts, he's not gonna be necessarily the most um, you know, he's not Tom Willis. No one other than Tom Willis is. No one other than Tom Willis is. What he is though, is he's an absolute grafter. You know, he does just keep getting off the field and carrying it. Um, you know, the two tries we scored were good tries, um, but I don't know, it's just we're a weird team. We're a weird, weird team because there are times when you think you they were playing in a way that could match anyone, and then we throw it, throw it on the floor and let the other team run the other length of the field.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

So I did I did identify one thing which I think maybe a little bit of it. So one of your shape one of your shapes when you play is to have quite a wide out pass from your first phase, so it'll be like straight from the base to second receiver, so like a 20-metre pass to the midfield. When you've got Thomas Williams, he can zip those passes like no one else. Kalen can't. So when he was doing it, there was like an extra half second where the ball was floating in the air, and Saracen's defence, which was a drift defence on the day, just reacted to it and just smothered the ball carrier straight away. And it it just it halted Gloucester behind the game line over and over and over again. And I think that's why you came a few moments where it just looked like, oh, what do we do now? Because you'd lost that platform you'd had over the last few weeks. So I think that's where such a small little detail, and it's like that that split second difference between pace on a wider pass, just unraveled it. Just unraveled it. It showed sometimes with rugby, it can be fine details. That was just something that became quite apparent the more I honed in on it. So it's definitely if you are going to rewatch the game, just look at the pace of pass on any of those because it it's quite telling when you watch it back. Uh but ultimately Saracens, I think the only criticism to Saracens was they didn't put Gloucester to the sword in a game where they really probably should have.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yeah, I think some of Gloucester's def desperate defence on the red zone at two or three times was really, really good and kept Saracens out when they probably should have scored, or kept them to get in a three when they looked like they should have scored a try.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Um, but yeah, I think that's probably fair that Saracens were, I mean, at times uber clinical, but then also not clinical enough, if you see what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Uh absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

But yeah, some of the I know Saracens aren't your favourite team, and there are a lot of people's not favourite team, but some of the players they have when they're on song are just so effective, they're just constantly effective. Maratoge and Ben L are good examples. Tom Willis, obviously, a brilliant example. Um Thiba McFarland, obviously off to France this summer. I mean, no wonder someone wanted to come in for him. He's just effective constantly. Um, I Nika Zique in the Saracens team is just a really effective cog, just constantly doing the right thing over and over again. You know, their scrum, which they don't all often have a dominant scrum, but it's just it just works. It works really well, you know. And then you've got Rhys Carey and Jamie George in particular, who you know are effective around the field. Theo Down comes on, he's really good around the field. Ironie Maui is good around the field, Charlie Bracken and Fergus Burke as the halfback partnership, I think is really clicking for them. Um, Van Ziel. You know, I think we've probably both said our piece on Van Ziel at various times over the last year or so. Um leaving back to going back to South Africa this summer. I mean, obviously got Thomas Williams coming in. Um, I think Thomas Williams and Charlie Bracken as scrum half options is solid potent. Potent, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um Fergus Burke looks so much better at 10 when he's got a zippy nine inside him. I I also really like Ollie Hartley. Oli Hartley, well, it's just gonna come to Ollie Hartley. I think he's so he's uh he was up against um Seb Atkinson in this game, and they're quite similar physiques, quite similar players in a lot of ways, um, in the way they play the game. I mean Seb Atkinson may be a bit more of a ball player, Oli Hartley maybe a bit more of a um power athlete, possibly, but there's not loads in it between them in those fronts. But he measured up really well against Sebackers in this one, who again didn't have a particularly poor game, just suffered from probably what you identified actually was a really good identification, I should say. Um, but I think Ollie Hartley looks like a player who, if you give him a platform, can be genuinely lethal at 12, runs really good lines, he is really powerful, you know, he's got enough speed for his size to be really effective. Almost in that kind of um Jamie Roberts mold of yeah, he might not be out and out a paceman, but he's fast enough that when you combine it with the size of him, it's gonna clatter someone. And then if you give if you have someone like Fergus Burke or Charlie Bracken feeding him, who just know what he can do, just feeding the ball straight away and and trust him, I I think he's he's a really really effective runner.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Yeah, no, I agree. And I think Nick Tompkins outside him is having one of his best seasons for in a Sari shirt for a long time. So I feel like I I know you said that Saracens aren't my favourite team, but I'm I've I fully recognise that I am a big fan of what they've been doing this season with the young players. I quite like how they've adapted to their style of play. They've moved away from being well, to be flippant, they're no longer the barf of the league, bar for the bar for the league this season. They're not they're not pack-oriented, they've got something about them. There's a reason before this weekend they'd scored the most tries because they're trying some different stuff, different different things, and um I yeah, I I can only applaud some of the stuff they've done this year. So they may not be my favourite team, but they're not my least favourite team now, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Yeah, well I think that's a I think that's a fair assessment. Um I think I think Saracens look ominous, you know. We said it last week, they look ominous. I I actually expect them now to make the playoffs. I I think they'll win their last couple of games, and I think Northampton if I was a Northampton fan, and I'm not, but if I were David, and I was thinking, oh, we're looking pretty good to get that top berth of the league and that home semi-final, and then I found out Saracens were the team coming along, I wouldn't I maybe wouldn't lose all my confidence, but uh I'd have a shiver going up my spine a little.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

I'd rather play them than Leicester at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

That's fair, but I think actually third and fourth at the moment, my current likely third and fourth, which I think will be Leicester and and Saracens. You know, every winner of the Premier's always had to start with a home semi-final. Um could that change not be the case?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

That could well change.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

I'm I'm I'm fully aware that um it's gonna be very, very close amongst the top four when it comes down to these knockout games. I know that for a fact. Um yes, as a Saints fan, getting top space, top spot, I do not take that lightly, and I do not think we've got an easy route to the final in any way, shape, or form. Whoever gets fourth. Um and I I suspect Saracens will get it as well. But yeah, they pulled off another win against Gloucester, and you know, it's a pretty poor record for Gloucester at the Stone X, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Only one win twelve. We've only got one win away at Saracens in 17, I think.

unknown 1:04:33

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Well, it certainly wasn't there wasn't any signs of that changing in this game. Uh was it 30? 3014. 3014, so yeah, comfortable win for Saracens and nothing to take home to Kingsholm for Gloucester. Then, final game of the round, Leicester Tigers up against Sail Sharks over at the Corpack in lovely Salford.

Tigers Beat Sale As Tens Drop

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

What did you make of this game, Rory? Because I know I just prefaced this by saying I wouldn't want to play Leicester, but there was a few little glimpses here, and there's been a very glaring issue that's emerged from this game in a particular position for a Leicester fan. What what did you make of it?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

Well, losing James O'Connor early is obviously a problem. Um all I know Bailey's an absolutely fine 10, but if Billy Sells out for the rest of the season, which it sounds like he is, and James O'Connor is gonna be out for the rest of the season, which he could well be off the back of a hamstring injury, um, there will be some nerves in in Tigers' ranks. Um losing that additional ball player at 12, I think, is a a real problem for them because it's been working so well having that dual playmaker role because they don't get it with Stewart. One of the one of Steward's um detractions, whatever you want to call it, you know, for all his his qualities as a as a fullback in the league. Particular, he's not a second playmaker most of the time. I know he could he, you know, he did juice it a little bit last week in particular, but not really, you know, not in the same way as Furbank or even Joe Carpenter in the sale notes. Um, and I think Tigers have looked way better having two playmakers in there, and it's it's enabled them to bring Will Wand into the game, it's enabled them to get the best out of their wingers, you know, very talented wingers. It's enabled them to get their pack moving around the pitch more and and being effective in other areas. It it could it could really um hamstring their title charge. Be interested to see how they how they perform their series. I mean, I'm particularly interested to see what their injury report looks like and whether they can get James O'Connor or Billy Sell back on the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Um the fact that they took Orlando Bailey off uh caught on more time. It it suggested to me that perhaps the early signings on James O'Connor wasn't great and they needed to protect him at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

No, and it's I don't think he's any I mean they took him off for um uh Whitley Tom Whiteley's a scrum half, so maybe it's not a surprise that after that it didn't score any more points. Um but um certainly think they'll be um yeah putting all I know Bailey in a sealed locked chamber over the next couple of weeks. Yeah, um I mean let's be honest for the first well hour or so of this game they were pretty devastating still.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were. They were very, very good. And you know, they continue to be a very impressive outfit. And when they are flowing, I think my question mark for them at the moment is that that fly half tenundrum they've got, and it's just that the strength coming off the bench, maybe it was just this game specifically, certainly in the front row. I sort of know Van der Fleer actually had a good game when he came off, but Van der Fleer and Herd as your backup props, uh kind of halt a bit of momentum when you're comparing it to Nikki Smith and Joe Hayes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Yes, I think it probably does. What I would say is I think their starting front row are actually all very capable of playing longer than they did in this game. Yeah, um I I I don't think they're actually 50-minute players. Um, I think Archie Vanderfleer in particular has come on leaps and bounds this season. Actually, I mean he's scored a good try. I actually think his scrummaging has come on really, really strongly this season. I I suspect he'll be um a key part of the Tiger's squad moving forwards. Um, but yes, I will accept that their second string front row is not um not their strongest. Um take that aside though, you've got Cam Henderson, Oli Kracknall, Hamish Watson, Tom Whitely, Solomon Akata. The rest of that bench isn't bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:46

No, it's it's not bad. I just I just I worry well no, I don't worry at all because you know, I don't worry about Lester Revel.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

I I revel in the fact that maybe that they're I don't it I don't I don't know what their injury situation is because they haven't got like any it just feels like there's a few Ilioney Joseph Woodward Isaiah Prussians was he uh suspended as he often is uh yeah look I think there is uh there's a couple of concerns there. I think Ilaioni is certainly one they'd like to have back there, although I think Hemish Watson's not a bad person to have on the bench, even even at his age.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

Um I think the 10 the 10 situation is the problem. That's the problem. That is the problem, to be fair. That that and Joseph Woodward not being um available because he is a second pair of hands at 12.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

Yeah, because when you put Catter in there, they just it's not the same, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Um he is just route one. Um he's very good, Route One, don't get me wrong, he's a brilliant bloody Route One player, but you aren't getting much more out of him than that. And if you lose the ability to bring Will Wand into the game the way he's played, I mean his so good. The try he scored that that vision was um really trying to avoid saying magical, but I'm not going to. It was magical. Um and I think the interplay between Radwan's pass for Haswell Collins try, you know, there seems to be some real chemistry there as well, and and the fact that they're getting their right wing across to finish off a move with a lovely long looped pass to their left wing suggests that the Tiger's blueprint has evolved a little.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

Compared to last season, where our biggest criticism was that they weren't able to get the ball in their hands at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

Yeah, absolutely. Not a problem. Yeah, they don't seem to have that problem now. Um, you know, but you know, they've still got a second row and two front rowers scoring this game, so they're not completely in fact no, sorry, three front rowers scoring in this game, I should say. Um so it's not completely gone, um, as well as the number eight. But you know, I think that if Orlando Bailey stays fit and they can adapt their game plan so that they can slice Cater at 12 without losing the ability to get the ball to Will Wand, We have to Collins, Adam Radwurn, they're still a massive, massive threat. Yeah, huge threat. Um, but there's a couple of ifs there. There's if there's questionable. There's more ifs now than there were last week.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Um for sale that came away with a point and weren't a million miles off coming away with two points in the end. I mean, it was a bit of a last quarter dash to score some tries, but they did score a couple of nice tries. Um, you know, I don't know, it's another one where the end of the season can't come soon enough for sale. It's been a car crash of a campaign for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:28

Well, you know, you know England games around the corner because they've thawed out Tom Curry, taking him out as cryo freeze and giving him a couple of minutes in the league, which is always nice to see.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

Yeah, yeah, he's back into the England squad, so probably starting in the summer, come away with uh another hit pointer or something, and um they won't see him again till Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:45

Yeah, um that is the curry, the curry flow. Um, but yeah, there's there's not a lot to take from this from from sales. Yeah, some nice tries, but I think you said earlier there's some teams waiting for the season to come to an end. I think they're one of those teams because they've they they've announced today their long list of levers. There's a few players on there that are surprised to see that they're letting go. Uh so Ana Sanya's one they're letting go.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

Yeah, surprised team was good. I know they've I know they've brought in some front rowers, but I thought they'd keep him around because I thought he was I think he's going to Coventry, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

I've looked into where they're going, but there are certainly more names than I had on my uh anticipated.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

20 players, I think they've are either leaving or been released. Obviously, some have been signed elsewhere, mostly by Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it's quite a big turnaround. I wasn't I didn't anticipate it would be quite so big. So Sale are also going through their own project next season. So I the interesting thing next year is there's a couple of teams that are really going through a bit of a transformation, and you can tell it always it's almost no coincidence that it's Sale and Newcastle who are waiting for the season to end because they're the ones going through the biggest amount of change into next season.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Well, I think I think the question is going to be can they cobble together enough cohesiveness to utilise that before the start of next season? I mean, Newcastle in particular, that's a massive question, it's a big issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:03

Um I think Sale will do it quicker than Newcastle, but it won't be saw with Gloucester this year, it takes time, and it's only just really starting to click now for Gloucester, and it was nowhere near the scale of Sale or Newcastle. So it'll be interesting to see how it how they fare. Um but yeah, it's a it's a solid win for Leicester, it secures them uh playoff spot, and it's just remains to be seen whether they are able to push for well, they've got to play Bath on the final game of the season. That's a Titanic game, that I really, really hope that second and third.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

If they beat Bath at the wreck to take the semi-final to Welford Road, it will be massive. That'll be huge, and I I would love to love to see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

Um and I I think the last is also some quite interesting matches because I think Saracens have got to play Bristol and I will tell you the final fixtures, David.

Run In Predictions And Final Fixtures

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

Yeah, I think I think those three teams have to play each other in some format.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:57

So yeah, European finals this weekend, yeah. Off the top four, so the weekend after, Bristol are home to Bath. Bristol will obviously want a massive response, and it's at Ashton Gate. Saracens are home to Quinn's, obviously, that's the London Derby. Um, be interesting to see how they get on there. Saints are at home to Gloucester. I would expect Saints to win that if I'm if I'm being frank. Um, Red Bulls at home to Sail, Tigers at home to Chiefs. That's an interesting game now. Yeah, that's an interesting one. And then in the final reckoning, we have got Bath at home to Tigers, as we've already said. Chiefs at home to Saracens. So Chiefs have got two massive games to finish it off. Um Gloucester at home to the Rebels, Quinn's at home to Saints. Again, would expect you to win that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

It'd be interesting. It I guess a lot depends on where the teams below Saints are. Because if they're comfortably already with a home semi-final, they might.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

Do they rest players? Well, don't because that might put Pagey Glostick in the Champions Cup. Um, and then Sail at home to Bristol. So Bristol will hope they're still in the off in on that final game because they'll back themselves there, I suspect. Um, we haven't done a predicted table, David. At some point we probably should, but I think um my gut feel is it will finish Saints, followed by Tigers, followed by Bath, followed by Saracens.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

I was I would agree with you pre-James O'Connor's injury, but I worry about Leicester's shape and whether Bath will slip up enough to allow that to happen. So I I I think it will be Saints, Bath, Leicester, Saracens. But if you were to ask me this a week ago, I would have said Saints Leicester Bath Saracens. But I just think it could all change. It could all change. Um but I'm just so glad the last two weeks there's a lot, there's still stuff to play for. But Rory, we're not done yet.

England Training Squad And Best XV

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

We have to squeeze in a bit of news we didn't talk about in the news. The England training camp squad announced the Nations Championship, a three-day training camp, bringing together 42 players to uh align themselves with Steve Thorpick and his new coaching team ahead of the inaugural nations championship. Uh so let's quick let's quickly talk about that squad announcement, and then we're gonna do a little exercise where we're always gonna name his strongest 15, and I'm gonna do a lovely little exercise pointing out how much depth there is in England at the moment by pointing out all the players who've missed out and a quite strong 15 that can be built off that. Uh but what did you make of the squad in general, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Um some interesting um omissions, particularly in Bath. Um, some backs in Bath maybe lamenting the lack of ball they've been given um in recent weeks because obviously a Jomo, Lawrence, Arundel all missing out. Fucking a singer as well, you could argue. Um there I I suspect I mean a Jomo's been a bit in and out with injury, as is Lawrence, so maybe that comes down to it. Maybe Arundel's been told going away and approve a few things before you get another shot.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

I think he's still suffering from being hauled off in that red card, Six Nations.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:07

Yeah, I've well I I'd I he's 23, his chance hasn't gone, but he's got to work himself back in. Um the jomo and Lawrence omissions are a little harder to explain until you realize that they've finally been able to pick Bernard Yancey van Rensburg. Yes, um, the native Bristolian. Um caused a bit of uproar that selection, I'd say, on social media. It has.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

Um where do you stand on it?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

If you're absolutely objective about it, it's the right call. He's been brilliant in the Prem for four or five years, he's been the standout centre in that time, pretty much bar no one. Um, and if he's available to play for England and he's committed, why shouldn't he play for England? It sticks to the core a little when you get a bit emotional about it, because obviously it's a 29-year-old ex-baby bock blocking the pathway of someone who's come through the England ranks potentially. Um, but if you're Steve Borthwick, the way things have gone this year, you're probably just gonna say, I want the best players, and he's definitely one of the best players, which he definitely is.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:12

Well, and it's if you're asking they're playing South Africa, how better to prepare yourself against playing a South African slide by putting a South African in your your squad to be your position and play the role of Damian Di Alende in training so that you can really prepare for that scenario. Is yeah, that's a strong argument by itself in my books. If he's eligible, he's eligible uh at the end of the day. Like we we can get on our moral high ground and say it's not right, we can say all this, that, and that. If he's eligible, and if he wants to play for England and Steve Borthwick wants to select him, so be it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

Um Yeah, I that I'll submit that's where I land on it, I think. I can understand why there's some reticence behind it, but I can't blame Steve Borthwick for doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:54

Well, and all the names that have been thrown out by people of players that have been blocked. So a Jomo, I suspect he's been left out because he's been injured, he's only played 20 minutes of Prem Rugby. This is just a training camp, he could still make the squad. Bear that in mind, people. Lawrence hasn't played any rugby since having an injury, he may still be injured. So again, why would you bring in for a training camp where he may not even be able to play? The other names I've seen like Tom Litchfield, fantastic. He played Van Rensburg off the park on the weekend, but Litchfield isn't he is still young and he's still this is kind of his breakout year, if anything. Yeah, um let's kind of be a bit patient with him. He's he's got a lot of rugby to play in his career. Van Rensburg does have five seasons of some solid, solid stuff under his belt. Like I don't know why people are writing that off so freely. And some of the stuff I've seen about oh, is Van Rensburg better than anyone else we've got? Have you where have you been the last five seasons?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:45

Yeah, he is, he is, and he can play 10, 12, 13 and has done for Bristol. Um I mean, he probably is the best centre in the league.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:54

Yeah, yeah. It's hard to argue with that. I I he's certainly been the most consistent over the last few seasons for sure, by a long shot. So I I'm comfortable in it in that sense. I do get the argument about it blocking uh the way, but I also think we just have to look at some of the other sections in the squad that it's not like they're trying to block every position, it's just centre's been a position of issue for a while, and we've spoken out some time about the prospect of Van Rensberg coming in. So let's have a look at him, and that's what they're doing in this training camp. But you look, they've picked they've picked Kepputua Pilotu to see how he fares in the hooker shirt, they've taken Charlie Bracken and Archie McParland, they've got Noah Calori there. We can't argue this is a coaching team that's blocking the route for young English players because they're looking at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

I think I think in some ways it's a pretty radical selection, um, you know, uh some of it enforced by injury, obviously, missing likes of uh Finn Baxter, Ben Curry, Greg Fisselau, uh Bevan Rod, Sam Underhill, Eddie Daly, um Trevor Davison. Um, but you know, I think in in a lot of ways there's a lot of very interesting potential combinations in there. But um, you know, it's it would be a dereliction of duty for Borthwick to stand on moral high grounds and go, I'm not gonna pick the guy with a South African name just because people might not like it. His job is to win in win games for England, and he probably quite rightly thinks Bernard Jones and Rendsberg gives him more more chance of doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:23

Yeah, yeah, I I agree, I agree. I I find it interesting the selection of the five scrum halves, it makes me think that the second and third slot in the squad's really open, assuming Mitchell's got this got the starting shirt. So that's really interesting to me. I think this is potentially the tour for Jamie Blameyer to really put his hand up to be backup to Jamie George and maybe the temporary incumbent, um, whilst Keppy Tua Plottu gets up to speed, perhaps. Um, and that it as you you've alluded to quite a few injuries in the front row specifically, be really interesting to see how that fares uh in the training camp and in the summer. Oh, my voice is going, Rory. So before we're gonna rattle through these games, then so give me your strongest 15 that you would pick from that training camp squad.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:09

My 15 off the back of this training squad in particular. This Gench, who said Jamie George at hooker, Joe Hayes are tight, standard. Yep. Second row, I'm gonna go Marat Hoje and George Martin. Yeah, I know what you're doing here. Yeah, and then Oli Chesham at six. Yep, fine with that. Guy Pepper at seven, Ben Earl at eight. Yeah, Alex Cole's on the bench, I'm assuming. Uh, yeah, we'll get through to the bench. Um, Alex Mitchell, Finn Smith, Grandmas Flyoff. I'm gonna go Seb Atkinson and Bernard Jancy Van Rensburg as my centres. I'd love to see it. Yeah. Um, big, powerful, all court games. I think there's a there's a lot of argument to say that that could be the partnership that they go with. I'd I'd want to see that in action, to be fair, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

Um so and Tommy Freeman on the wings and George Furbank at fullback. Love it. And then on the bench, I'm going Jamie Blameer, Benow Abano, Ashropoko for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

Alex Coles, Charlie Cunningham South, and then this was a toss-up. I've landed on Henry Pollock, but if Tom Curry's fit, you probably end up picking Tom Curry, but maybe instead of China Cunningham South, I suspect Henry Pollock still stays in there. But those three I think are in a fight for two two bench spaces at the moment. Okay. And then we got Archie McPahl and Marcus Smith.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

It's hard to it's hard to argue that selection, Rory. It's hard to argue that selection.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:33

Yeah, I think the unlucky ones are Henry Slade's been excellent for X to this season. Um, I think he's well within a shout of someone saying, How is he not starting? He's been brilliant. Um obviously Fraser Ding will potentially could be the 12 as well. So there's I mean, there are a lot of questions in the centres. Um you could maybe argue the toss over Ben Obano versus Manny Yogan. That's that's a bit if an or if Finnbax does not fit. Um Gutfield is they will go with Chesham at six, so I think that probably puts Coles on the bench because he can cover second row and six as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:13

Um they probably you probably you could maybe get away with a specialist second row, but I don't see them picking Arthur Clark there at the moment. Unfortunately. Um unfortunately, uh, I don't think Nicole Zekwe is quite there. Don Brandt maybe makes a bench spot. He'd be in with a shout with again versus China Cunningham South, possibly, but again, not certain on that. Um, but I'm yeah, I would I think I'm probably pretty close to what would be a starting 15, regardless in the summer. Okay, but David, who's your um absentee 15?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:46

Well, this this exercise was designed to purely try and outline the depth that we have currently in English rugby. Uh it might highlight some of the weaker areas, but it also outlines some real strength areas. So the front row is a real toss-up around well, loose head props basically a big problem here at the moment in terms of depth because of the injuries he got. So I I I landed on potentially Josh Yussepha Scott. Uh is he a tight head? We'll take him out then. Will Hobson was probably he's the one of the most minutes who's not been selected uh currently uh in the league. Yeah, I suppose we could go Bill Big Val. I think he's 33, so depth wise, I don't know how much longer he's gonna be on the depth mines for, but I could be wrong. Uh tighthead for Sogborn or George Klosker. Uh couldn't decide between the two. I'll probably land on for Sogborn. Booker, again, a bit of a problem position. It's it's a it was a toss-up between Dan Frost, Craig Wright, Jack Walker. I think if I was to take off my Saints tinted glasses, well I'm assuming he's the ban might still be in place. Uh the reason why he's not selected for this camp. I've kind of been based on availability on this camp for England. Oh, okay, sorry, being for this. That's why I've not picked Finn Baxter, for example, because he's not been selected or Bevan Rodd. Um so I'll probably say Jack Walker would probably get the nod, but I'd love to see Craig Wright given a chance. Or Dan Frost. Um that's the front row options we have available right now that haven't been selected. Second row is a lovely, lovely experience. Ben Bamba, Hugh Tizard, Ted Hill, because Barth seemed to think he's you know he's a second row. Joe Owen, he's another one as well. I think I think I would go Ted Hill, Ben Bamba, because I think that feels like a really good dichotomy of styles that could be quite interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:28

I would I would make the case for Joe Batley.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:32

Yeah, Joe Batley as well or Russ Tweemer. Yeah, he's not had a good season, to be fair. Ever since he's been signed for Red Bulls, he's gone absent for cheese. No, maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:42

Maybe not. But yes, all good, all good shouts. Tom Lockett and Ed Prowell's not getting in there, unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:49

Yeah, I forgot about Tom Lockett. Ed Prowell's were not ready, but Tom Lockett, yeah, he should be in this list to be fair. Uh back row, it's a real toss-up. You could basically Mitch and Max people all over the place, but it's basically a toss-up between Miles Reid, Tom Pearson, Fitz Harding, Jack Kenningham, Callum Chick, Alfie Barbary. There'll be more that you can add to this list. But the back row stocks are stacked. Stacked. Scrum half, Harry Randall, Lucas Friday, Rafi Quirk, not bad to have in reserve. Not bad. Fly half, Charlie Atkinson, obviously, and Harvey Skinner, who I think is having quietly a very impressive season with Rex the Chiefs. Centres, obviously, there's a Jomo and Ollie Lawrence, but I I'd I think I'd be really interested to see Ollie Hartley and Will Wand uh as a centre pairing. Also as an outsider option, could be Massey White and Tom Lichfield. Um again shows that centres is quickly becoming an area where there is a bit of depth, which two seasons ago was not even on the horizon. Wings of the fullback, we are blessed, Hassel Collins, Arundell, George Hendy, obviously the ginger flash, Oli Sleightholm, the forgotten man of England rugby, Paul Brown Bampo, Ben Loder, Joe Carpenter. Max Malins, Tom de Glanville, Will Joseph. Will Joseph. Like it's we are blessed. I I think back row and back three, we are absolutely blessed with options. And arguably scrum half as well, now with the contingent of young scrum halves coming through the system. Yeah. If we can get the other positions, especially front row, which gives me the big the m the most concern if I was looking at it from a longevity perspective. But I I'd like it the whole point of that, Rory, is to say English rugby is in fine fettle. Yeah, it is in the fine fetting. It's in a good position. It's in a good position, and uh I can't wait for the nation's championship to start. But we've still got a lot of rugby to go.

Guest Host Next Week And Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 1:28:41

So next weekend is the European Champions Cup and European Challenge Cup weekend. And the big news, folks, is this podcast is going ahead, but it's going ahead. Son's one of our beloved hosts, dear Rory is not available. So I am drafting in a guest host to come and join me. And uh it'll be hopefully all being well, be Murray Anderson of Blissful Rugby coming in, stepping in for Rory and providing north of the border view of our European competition. So I look forward to having him to join me. Obviously, it won't be the same without you, Rory. Um it'll probably be considerably more competent and considerably more knowledgeable. I would have thought so. But uh exactly, but obviously Rory will be back after that one week sejourn, I'm assuming. Um hopefully you have a lovely time wherever it is you're going, and the listeners will get away. Well, there we go. It's a pure substitution. Um but with that being said, Rory, it's time to bring this particular episode to a close and your two-week break from Ruxmall's one week break from Ruxmall's Overballs. Do you have any final thoughts for the listener?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

Don't miss me too much, yeah. We've been Ruxmall's Overballs. Hope you've enjoyed listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

Remember to like, subscribe, follow, listen, and all those fun things. We'll be back again next week with some more Rugby podcasting. And all we have to say for now is Ta.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:07

Ta da