S2 Ep 30 - Champions Cup Quarter Final Crunch Time

Knockout rugby doesn’t care about your feelings, and the Champions Cup quarter-finals prove it. We start with a quick dose of real-world grassroots rugby, from survival maths to sore heads, then jump straight into Premiership Rugby transfer chatter: who is still shopping, who is capped out, and why George Furbank heading to Harlequins says a lot about contracts, squad depth, and the modern salary cap puzzle.

From there we live in the pressure cooker. Bath v Northampton Saints gets the full treatment: atmosphere, big calls, missed moments, and the tug-of-war between Saints’ high-tempo attack and Bath’s brutally effective forward game. We also ask the awkward question every neutral secretly loves: if you have Finn Russell, should you always cut loose, or is “brilliantly boring” still the smartest way to win?

The rest of the weekend delivers contrasts. Glasgow Warriors v Toulon gives us defence, breakdown scraps, and clutch plays. Leinster v Sale Sharks turns into a lesson in how to make a favourite uncomfortable, even if Leinster’s quality eventually shows. Then we finish with the kind of match that makes you forget the scoreline and just enjoy the craft: Bordeaux v Toulouse, a heavyweight clash where the breakdown and defence look like the true superpowers, plus a rant about how Jack Willis can be this good and still sit outside England plans.

We round things off with a quick What a Ranker challenge and a serious nod to the Red Roses opening their Women’s Six Nations title defence in front of a huge Twickenham crowd. If you enjoy sharp rugby opinions and big-game analysis, subscribe, share the pod, and leave us a review, then tell us where you disagree most.

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Transcript

Grassroots Wins And War Wounds

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Rux Moons and Oval Bulls. That's right. The fans favourite rugby podcast back once again with some of the fans' favour favourite rugby content with the fans' favourite rugby. Content providers in myself, Dave, joined by Rory. As always, Rory, you know what to do. Say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Hello, listeners. Hello. Apologies for David calling us content providers. Well, how would you describe us? How are you, David?

SPEAKER_02 0:29

How would you describe us, Rory? Uh zeitgeist creators. Zeitgeist okay, okay. I can get on board. I can get on board. Yeah, very well, thank you, Rory. Very well. Um what do what news do I have? Hmm. I don't have anything particularly interesting to provide in the banter section, Rory. I just know that there's a certain rugby club in the deep dark areas of Essex that have had a a double, double winning weekend, and I I know you're desperate, desperate to talk about uh a successful weekend for those at Westcliffe.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Yeah, two big dubs on Saturday for Westcliff. Massive day it was. Yeah, yeah. Um so the ones uh beating Medway at home. We lost away at Medway in the first game of the season, and we needed to win this one because it was still not confirmed that we were going to stay up. And thank you to the RFU for creating the most over-convoluted system of uh relegation and promotion, because we still aren't confirmed whether they're gonna go up or stay off, because we now have a playoff against Medway, which if we lose would result in another playoff against probably HAC, the Honourable Artillery Company. And at that point, we'll know whether or not we're in the same league next year. But if we beat Medway, I believe we're still up, although I'm not 100% sure on that one. Right. Okay. In um in in lieu of the uh Papa John's Cup that the RFU have held for the last couple of years, which was uh basically a national cup competition at the end of the season, which resulted in a finals day at Twickenham, they've instead created a series of unfathomable playoffs. That I mean, honestly, I it's it's like up to four places up from the bottom. There's some sort of playoff, and I I no one quite understands it, but all the short of it is we've got another game against Medway at home, which we hope to win, and that will keep us up.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Okay, fantastic. And uh you're obviously the team that you are captain of, the twos.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

My beloved lions away at Chumpsford, second in the table, um, playing on a pitch that was about a 45 degree angle and had all the cushion of a car park.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Uh really fun game to play in. Tough, tough old game, actually. We did come out in the end, we we came out sort of convincing winners, 50 points to 26.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Lovely.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Um going downhill in the first half, we were 31, seven up at halftime, I think. Humpsford came back with three quick tries in the first 10 minutes of the second half when we were we only had 16 players, so we were a bit um out on our feet by uh by quite early on. Managed to uh grind them into a set piece game. The old uh front rowing front row union knocked their heads together and thought, right, we know how to grind this game out. Won some penalties, got the other end of the pitch, and scored some really good tries. Um but just a really, really good, tough game against second of the table. We are now uh this weekend we were playing our uh playoff semi-final for the to win the league overall against Wansted at home, hopefully with a final to come, followed by the cup final the week after. A couple of big weeks. Couple of big weeks, you know. Yours truly hoping to come uh come bearing a couple of trophies at some point. And uh in uh in even more striking news, David, your boy here came away with some serious war wounds.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Oh, what happened? Actually, no, I did I I did spot a picture on uh on your socials, Rory. What happened?

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah, lots of lots of sympathy from the from the listeners, please. So on top of having very little skin left on my uh arms and legs, uh in a in an act of um cheer violence, one of the uh the Chelmsford lads decided to go for the old vertical stamp on the head. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

He must be a fan of one of the rival podcasts.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Must be, yeah. I mean he listens to Ben Young's probably bastards. But I think you can catch a little bit of the extra cauliflower at the top of the ear and back of the neck there. Um but uh yes, he was um summarily dealt with by uh a teammate who I won't name, um who was then summarily dealt with by the referee. Um fortunately, the bods got their uh their heads together after the game and uh discussion between referees and committee members. We all came out with the uh correct call that no further action needed on either side, rugby was to play on. So all scrubbed and whitewashed. Um but no, I came away with uh memories.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

You came away with memories, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I I don't remember being stamped on in the head. I mean a proper vicious vertical stamp downwards. It wasn't like a it wasn't a rucking motion, it was just a straight up stamp.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Well, you know, it's obviously you must have done something.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

I I imagine it's pure jealousy of talent, and maybe it was either my dancing through the defensive line with ball in hand, or it was me grabbing onto his leg as he was trying to get away from the ruck.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Okay. Understood. Picture painted. I'm you know, I'm you're not blameless.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Um I'm not blameless. I don't know that I deserve the full stamp to the head, but I'm certainly not blameless, and I'll cop that one.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

No, no, no. Well there's nothing like a bit of rugby pitch um but justice, because it doesn't feel like just it's not fair justice, but you know, things vigilanteism, I think. Yeah. It it all got sorted out in the end.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

And look, who's like I came away with uh I came away with uh an ear leaking blood for uh several hours, and he came away with uh a nose two foot wide across his face. Well that feels fair. Nature appalls a vacuum and things were things were dealt with by natural laws.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Well, you know, it's it's I'm just glad to hear that there was Swift Justice then by the sounds of things.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah, Swift Justice was was dealt out, but uh yeah, a good bit of biff. Oh well, that's good old grassroots rugby for you, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Also, actually it does remind me, I it doesn't remind me at all, but um has there been any feedback uh from any of your uh Welsh listeners around our apology last week around uh butchering the Welsh language, and you know we're we're on notice to um watch our backs in uh in Newport.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Um, but to be fair, that is general advice if you're ever in Newport.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah, that doesn't feel like new advice to me.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

That feels like it's just uh also in Mertha, uh Ebervale, uh anywhere anywhere in the Gwendrife Valley. Um, but that's that is that's actually irrelevant to the pronunciation, that's just general uh travel advice from the home office.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, and I think that's been in place since we started the podcast for Wallace. Um but it's good to know. It's good to know. Uh things haven't got worse. I'll take vote.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

I'll take note of that and things international relations across the Seven River have uh have not deteriorated further. Fantastic. We've got JD Bans in there sorting it all out. Oh, good.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Thank thank God for that. That's I know that's all we're creeping into the rest of politics there. Um let's not do that. Um well, I think for this podcast, Rory, to bring us back to the reason we're here together.

What We Are Covering Today

SPEAKER_02 7:33

Oh, yeah. Uh, we're gonna do a little bit around uh some prem transfer stuff to start off with, and then we're gonna move into the Champions Cup quarterfinals. Uh yes, the listener is clamoring for it. We're gonna do another round of Wata Rancor. I know you're dying to hear another round of it. Uh and then we'll finish off talking about the Red Roses opener in the Women's Six Nations. I I'm I'm content with that running order, Rory. Uh I'm gonna ask you if you are, but you have to say yes. But you happy with that running order? Yes. Thank you for obliging.

Premiership Transfers And Squad Gaps

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Uh so starting off with news, kind of news, it is news. Rugby transfers, we talk about it quite a lot over the last few months or so. Um The picture has been painting over the last few months about where these clubs have been recruiting, strengthening, losing players. Uh obviously the latest big name being George Furbank going well, confirming the worst kept secret in rugby transfer um kind of rumour mills of his move to Harlequins from Northampton. Uh the latest rumors coming out of the the Red Bull rumour machine being their twentieth signing being um Ellizalde heading over there from Bristol. Yeah um but I think it it begs the question, it does feel like the whole transfer thing, boomer mill, whatever you want the transfer machine is slowing down a smidge. What clubs have kind of finished business, what clubs still have huge gaping holes that need to be filled? What what sort of moves are we still expecting to be made between now and the start of next season, if any at all?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Well, I know Gloucester are still in the market for a tight head.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yes, because I think you were in for Sclavy, weren't you? But he's gone to Leicester.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah, so I know I know that's still in the off-in. I don't know if that's a replacement for maybe Laulala, maybe Jamal's um thinking of retiring. Um, but I know I that's one I do know. That's been confirmed by Skibs. Um gut feel is Bristol may still need to do a bit of business, they're losing a few now. Um I think uh I would be surprised if there weren't more moves by Harlequins.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Um yeah, their fans have been screaming and shouting that yes, it's lovely getting Furbank, but we still need some props on the hooker.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Um I get that, yeah. Um, you know, I look Quinn's do have the strength of a very good academy, and you know, with the likes of Elliott Williams coming through, maybe they think those players can start bridging that gap. Um, but gut feel is they probably still need to do a bit of business, but probably a bit of cycling some players out who have not impressed um since sign-in, would be my um my gut feel. Um Saracens have done, I think have done most of their business. They're doing a bit of re-signing, um, mostly re-signing their England stars. Yeah. Obviously, Bruder and Arthur Barbary's been their big the big headline sign in, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah. Um I think that's the one they needed. They needed to replace Willis, and I think they got as close to replacing Willis as you could do within an EQT system.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Without resurrecting Henry Touilanghi, who obviously isn't dead. Um I'd be amazed if Sale weren't still shopping. Yeah, I think they are.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

I think that they're definitely shopping around for a scrum half. Uh I I saw links to Xavier Rowe and Embrose Papier, uh, two names that I've seen banded around because obviously they want they need to replace Rafi Quirk.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Um yeah, I mean that though they make sense. Um I I wouldn't be surprised to see more than a few uh relative unknown South Africans turn up in the Prem over the next few weeks. Um outside of that, doesn't sound like Bath have got a lot more room to play with.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

I don't know. No, I've on Bath it definitely feels like that they well, we we know that they are kind of operating at the cap and there's not many going out, so they can't really bring many in. It's just whether they do I don't know, obviously they bring in Dupreer in. I don't know if he's a direct replacement for Barbary or not.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Um I mean he must be. He must he must be. I don't know. Well, they they certainly don't have I they can't have the wage room to bring in someone else to fill in that Barbary rather than they wouldn't be able to get someone for the quality for the money they've got available.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

The Thomas DeToy gap being created, which I imagine is quite a sizable salary gap.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Uh it will be, but uh so much of that will be taken up by the way they've structured their contracts to increase it to what they think will be the and they've done a lot of re-signings, haven't they? They've done a lot of resignings. So I don't I don't expect much more. Extra may may make a few more moves. Um I I wonder if they'll try and pull the same trick they did this season, try and pick up some good ones out of Super Rugby Pacific when that season ends.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, and there actually there was that news that I saw earlier today about apparently Moana Pacifica folding within Super Rugby, so whether that releases some players.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yeah, so that could that could spring some some interesting sign-ins. Um the thing is, you know, at this point of the season, most of the moves are confirmed because most of the contracts have now been negotiated and finalised. There are very few contracts still dwindling down that don't have um actions in place for next season. So you won't see too many more. People will be shopping, people will be smart shopping to try and do a bit of money ball, um probably in something like the Curry Cup in in South Africa, or maybe the champ, maybe the champ if they can if they can find some gems. But I wouldn't I'm not expecting loads more line grabbing sign-ins.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

I think from Northampton, I think it's been kind of semi-confirmed that they're only looking for one more player and they're looking in the centre position, uh, which I don't know if where the need is, but that's where they've said they're looking.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

Um I would have thought they'd want they just want an auxiliary back. You get so many weird injury lists in Northampton. You just want someone who can play anywhere between sort of ten and fifteen, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 13:35

We just need to reincarnate James Wilson for anyone who remembers him. He basically did play between ten and fifteen and was pretty handy in most positions. Um Tom May, that's who you want. A Tom May, a James Wilson, uh yeah, those sorts of players. I think that's that's who they're looking for. Um whether they found it or not, I don't know. I haven't got any names for you, unfortunately. It's all very quiet. Um, but you know, it is interesting, obviously gutting for George Furbank to be kind of confirmed at Harlequins, but we've they've treated us by kind of warming us to this news for about three months now, because it's kind of been known about for so long that I kind of Yeah, and it was it it seemed to be something online of either Northampton weren't willing to give him a long enough contract or were he felt shortchanging him. So the the the story is uh again I don't have an official source to this, but the story is that Saints only offered him a one-year contract extension, and that's in line with their policy that they have that anyone over the age of 30 they don't offer any more than a one-year contract. Yeah. Uh I think only it's only happened a couple of times. I think Dylan Hartley's like an exception they made for um I think Courtney Laws is like one of his first renewals was an exception. But outside of that, they stick to that policy, and obviously Furbanks wanting a bit more security, wanting a bit more you know, longevity to his contract. Like I can understand that, and Quinn's were happy to offer him kind of either matching or more salary that Northampton are offering at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

I think he's a great sign-in for Quinn's if they can get a pick that that can compete. Marcus Smith and George Furbank is potentially a lethal 1015.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, absolutely, and they're getting Furbank in his absolute prime. Like I've I we'll talk about it in a bit, I'm sure, but he he is a player who, when he's on the pitch, he elevates people around him and he is a very, very good player. The only question mark around him is just his injury record, but um I'm sure due diligence has been done um to make sure there's no concerns there. Uh but yeah, from a Northampton fans perspective, it's frustrating, but you kind of have to understand it with all the resignings we have to do and the profile of that Saints team. Like you can't keep everything. Can't keep them all. You can't keep them all. Yeah. Um it is what it is. We just have to wait for the next cab off the rank, which is very much the uh the approach that's employed by Northampton. It's uh relying on that academy, and it's worked to this point, so why change it? As horrible as it's gonna be. Next season I have to watch Courtney Laws in a Sale Shark shirt and George Furbank in a Harlequin search. It's it's just it's just not fair. It's just not fair, Rory. It's doubly hard because Quinn shirts are often horrible. Yes, yeah. I wonder how many lightning bolts are gonna be on it this year or next year. Or blood splatter. Or blood splatter. Yeah, who knows what they'll go with. Maybe they'll I don't know, maybe they'll use like teardrops or something like that. I don't know. We'll see if that's what I can't wait for the summer kit drop and we can tear it apart then. Um but that's enough pontificating around Galega Prem transfers, I think, Rory. I think we've covered enough ground in that space. Shall we get into the meat and potatoes? Let's get into the meat and

Bath Edge Saints In Classic

SPEAKER_02 16:41

potatoes. Um the meat and potatoes this week is the Champions Cup quarter finals. And it kicked off this Friday at the wreck between Bath and Northampton Saints. Yours truly was there absorbing the atmosphere, absorbing the event, the occasion, and absorbing McGuinness? No, no, I was uh being being well behaved. Um I know, it's a disappointment to everyone. Uh but I I have a I have a few things to talk about around the occasion. Uh I have a fair few things to talk about around the game itself, Rory, but um maybe I'll I'll invite you to kind of give your probably more neutral perspective before I give what you will call a one-eyed Saints fan completely biased opinion.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Yeah. Yeah, well we we await we will wait to hear the um the party line. Um from a it tends to be a neutral perspective on the on this one. Um I thought this was a fabulous game to watch um from an entertainment perspective. Two two teams packed full of quality, some quite contrasting styles, but both able to kind of mix it in each other's style. You know, Northampton aren't necessarily afraid of the grunt work, and Bath can play some lovely rugby when they when they want to as well. And I think you saw all those kind of um those elements come come through in this game. Um, I think I I've no doubt that you will uh have some criticisms reserved for some of Bath's style in this game, in contrast to Northampton, and I wait to hear it. But um, I actually thought they played some some really nice stuff at times. Um my my overarching opinion is that Saints are probably unlucky, particularly um the Pollock bin at the end shouldn't have been a bin. I think they called it right on comms. Carreras sealed off, it should have gone the other way as a pen. Um and that but but was probably the game.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Even if Carreras didn't go off his feet, why is he getting yellow carded? He got given one warning to take his hands off, and he did. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Carry on. So I I would say that you know, I I think Northampton were just about unlucky, but also our own worst enemies. Also their own worst enemies. And you could you can easily make the the case that Bath probably were the right team, right winner in the end, I think, particularly if you're a Bath fan, I'm sure you would.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Um, you know, from a creative director would agree, yeah, yeah, well yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

C C D is a is a firm believer that Bath um Bath deserved it. But you know, just to call out some um some moments, you know, Dingwall's try on six minutes, just going six flooding up the pitch from the the scrum to the line out, just some amazing hands and running lines on on show. Yeah, you know, absolutely Northampton at their absolute best off the back of that line out.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

The one-handed scoop from McParland was beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean it that is one of the I don't know about Andy Good called it, but you know, that is the sort of thing that had you seen DuPont do it, it goes on it goes straight to the top of the highlight reel. Uh it was a phenomenal bit of skill. Um, I'd also call out uh the Lockett try. Yeah, yeah. Uh on the on the wing, the interplay in that, particularly from Fischetti. Lovely little sort of the pullback, beautiful. Uh that's really a really, really good try. Uh, and good identification from Finn Smith to find Lockett on the wing. Nicely finished by the big man. Um, Finn Russell's footballing skills off the back of a line out. Um, you know, Saints tipped uh Saints are unlucky, they they nearly nick Bath's line out, which was really shaky. I was I yeah, I was surprised. I was yeah, that's not rung through from my object. Doesn't ring true to me. Doesn't ring true, but that's that's so on the cons. But I mean it was shaky in this game.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Um Saints tip the ball up and Russell's managed to basically dribble it through, I think it's Finn Smith's legs, and it gives it sort of left, right, right, left, dots it down. Really nice bit of skill. Um some fortunate ball bouncers. Ah, you made your own luck. You know, I think at some point when Finn Russell keeps doing things like this, we just have to get it into our heads that he does mean to do it. Um, another lovely bit of skill again for Arundell's try, the that sort of double pump on the pass just to give him enough space to go in. Off it's off first phase, things probably should do better, but Russell really makes that. Um Ben Spencer nearly scoring it. It ends up with uh Archie getting charged down in the backfield, and somehow they contrived not to score it in the corner. Um Ben Spencer thrown the off-load when he should have dotted down. Um but it was just a lovely mad bit of sequence, but really good pressure from Bath. Um I I think on balance Saint scored the more entertaining tries, but there's there's something to be said for uh the efficiency of Bath. I think the more I watch it, and I don't I'm more than happy to acquiesce on the idea that this is entertaining rugby from a spectacle point of view, but there is something annoyingly impressive by Barth's ability to make the forwards go 1520, 2535. Is just picking go, just creating that pressure.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

As I described it, I described it on my socials as just brilliantly boring.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

It's I mean it is, but when from where I was watching it, and I was like, you know, I wasn't in the ground, the tension of trying to see is Pollock gonna be able to find a find a moment to jackle, is Kemini getting over it? Can they knock them back? They've nearly that he's nearly isolated, yeah. That's great rucket. It is it's exciting in its own way, just for the sheer physicality of it. Um, and you know, it ends with you know there are they score a couple of really good tries off the back of creating that kind of pressure. I don't think I would um describe Van Veek's try as you know, try of the season, but there is something about that kind of physical pressure that Bath are able to put on you that just it does it does just sort of absorb me. Um I I I wouldn't begrudge you claim calling foul on um the Pollock decision. I don't think the Van der Mesh decision was incorrect.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Oh no, no, no, I absolutely that's 100% the right decision. Um I was I was I was in I was in line for his offside and it was just so lazy um from him that yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

You know, and let's and Bath Bath are efficient, you know, he gets binned and a minute later Tuplot who goes over in a line out more.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

You know, they you good teams seize the moment, and Bath really do manage that. Um so all in all, I'd say Bath probably just edged it just on ruthless efficiency, but a hell of a game to watch.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah, I would I would absolutely concede it was a fantastic advert for Prem Rugby, I'd say. I think it was uh an absolutely genuinely fantastic game of rugby for someone to watch if from a neutral perspective, wanting to know what prem rugby was all about. It had everything that Prem Rugby is about, because as you say, it had two contrasting styles showing how those two contrasting styles can be effective and work against each other and create a spectacle that can be really enjoyable to watch. Um one thing I want to say around Bath just the the ground, the stadium, the atmosphere. It was fantastic in the second half, um, mainly because they enjoyed you know cheering off Polluck's yellow card and all that. It was the loudest you hear them the entire day. But I just found it really bizarre at the start of the game, there was no atmosphere. You know, when at the start of uh you go to Kingsholm and they announce the team sheet, there's always a cheer after every name that's shouted off the Gloucester team sheet. It's tumbleweed at the wreck when they're announcing the Bath team. And then the players just stroll out to no announcement, nothing. And there's oh they're on the pitch. And it's just a bizarre, bizarre feeling, and it just it's a very odd atmosphere.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

They're very reserved in these provincial towns, David.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Well, seemingly so, seemingly so, and but it's frustrating because you see the atmosphere at the end of the game when it was close, and it was it was a really good atmosphere. So, does it just take adversity and a little bit of conflict to get Bath fans up out of their seat because they didn't seem that interested at the start of the game, and maybe that accounted for Bath's really bad start. I don't know, because it didn't feel like the crowd was behind them in any way, shape, or form. Um it it took it took Saints to get 28 points in the lead, wherever it was, and 21 points in the lead for them to wake up. Um so something for Bath Bath fans to think about there, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Yeah, look, we've all we've always thought they're a bad bunch.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah, yeah, we yeah. I like going there, I like talking to the fans when I'm there, but they don't seem to like us online, but that's fine. As long as the creative director approves, I'm happy. Um few observations from me on the game. I think from a Northampton perspective, there's like four moments that really just tipped it the wrong way for us. I'm not I'm not gonna dwell on Andrew Brace blatantly getting a wrong call on the Pollock yellow card. We've spoken about already. I'm not enough people are gonna talk about that, I'm not gonna spend too long talking about that. I think Finn Smith missing touch for the penalty just before half time. Yeah, gave the ball back to Bath, they managed to score, get more points. We were in a position where we could have put more pressure and put an even bigger difference on the scoreboard. That felt significant. Uh, just after half time, Archie McParland took a quick tap penalty. Uh I'm not saying that was the wrong decision, but the support didn't go with him, wasn't on the same page, and then we ended up turning over. They then kicked the ball into the corner and then score from a line out. If we just kind of been a bit more patient and maybe either got on the same page as McParland and kind of supported him, so he didn't give away the penalty, or if we just took a breath and kicked into the corner, might have been a better decision. Um, but it just handed momentum straight back to them, where in the second half, Northampton Saints just didn't have momentum at all. Um thirdly, the discipline from Van Demesh, it's gonna feel like I'm calling out Van Demest because I'm he's gonna well, there's basically two moments from him that I'm going to say here, but I also thought he had a very good game. So that being really lazy offside, that got him the yellow card. Um, for the kind of accumulation of penalties, it like I was in line with it, it was just it was just pure laziness. Um and I'm sure when he's looking back at the video, he'll put hold his hands up that he just was not getting on, he just went offside and stayed offside and didn't do anything about it. And then fourthly, there was a ruck, no, there was a mall from a line out, and he just did such a lazy entrance to the left-hand side, halfway up the mall, and it just gifted Bar for penalty at a really crucial point in the game. And I think this showed why Van Der Mesh has often kind of pulled off around the 50-55 minute mark, because this is when he had to come on for Lockett, who had to go off for HIA, and I think this is why you see he's not very often an 80-minute player, because well, he's 140 kilograms and he's a unit, like it's fair play, like it's hard to run around for 80 minutes and not not be gassed. So, like, I'm not gonna attest to that. Yeah, yeah, so I'm not gonna dig it out for it. But I think those are kind of four crucial moments that led to the position where Barth were able to get that final score and see out the win. Um I agree, like, well, I've been very violent.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

I have to throw one more out there to you, David, and this is um uh it was it's it's somewhere in this around the 60-65th minute. Finn Smith very nearly pulled off a brilliant crossfield to Slight Home and it just just overcooked. Yeah. And it would have been, I think at that moment, I think that would have put you uh more than a score ahead.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's probably fair. I think I think that's just kind of that's that's that's a moment that could have been rather than a moment that cost us. Uh yeah, yeah, that's fair. And I th I I just I just think in the second half our old enemy discipline just came back to haunt us. We were caught offside. Yeah, and it's always the offside line. Like we we seem to get pinged for offside more than any other club, and like I can't argue, like Van Demeshwell, he was blatantly offside, and like we we do play a bit of a rush rush defence, so it's gonna happen. Uh it's very frustrating because it just always seems to happen when we're under the pump, and we just don't seem to be able to keep our heads when we're on our own try-line, and we just give away penalties. And the second you're giving advantage to Finn Russell, he's either gonna pull off St. Magnificent or he's just gonna say, okay, we'll take the penalty and pump you in the corner and we'll score from a line out mole. And that's what happened. Uh, it's frustrating, but you know, I can still walk away from that thinking Northampton Saints, yeah, they played the more entertaining rugby. I still stand by Bath being an incredibly boring team in the sense of it is predictable, it is there's nothing fancy about the way they do it, it's very effective, it works very well, and it's going to be very successful for them probably for the next five to ten years. But I still think it's boring. Um, but hey, it's because I'm a Saints fan and I'm used to the fast, flary, exciting stuff. Like if my if my team that I supported was doing what Bath was doing and winning every week, I'd think it's fantastic. So like I say it's but it is more of a compliment than a criticism. But it probably sounds more like a criticism, and I'm fine with it.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Yeah, I think it's the venom in your voice that makes it so like a criticism. Um it's very boring though. Uh it it can be. I I think to to give Bath some of their du and it's not something I'm inclined to do, as you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

They're very, very, very good at it.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

But but also they are perfectly capable of scoring some brilliant tries. I mean, think about the last week, the Ben Spencer try that went end to end from the try-line. There's always an exception to the rule, Rory. No, no, look. What my point, my point being, Bath are good enough to have that extra gear. I think my challenge to Bath would be are they brave enough to go into that extra gear against the best teams in the competition from the off, so they don't have to pull off this kind of comeback performance. You know, let's not forget who they've got in the next round away.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Oh, yeah, yeah, good good luck. That's another reason that's another reason why I'm not that upset that we didn't win because there's no chance we're winning that.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

It it feels it feels like a hide into nothing, but can you grind out a game like that? I don't think you can against Bordeaux. I think you have to try and match them toe to toe.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

But I've maybe it comes from a place of frustration because Bath have arguably one of the most exciting tens in world rugby. And how often have we said that he just doesn't seem to be on it or at it with Bath the season? I think it's because he knows he doesn't need to do anything. Like his job is literally I could turn up and do his job, but I just I just kick into the corner for penalties. Like he doesn't have to do anything spectacular. So he's you're notoriously going to kick into the corner. Leg like no one else's like best kicker in the world. Leg like a ham hock. Yeah, exactly. But like, but I do think that Finn Russell has a bit of a cushy ride at Bath, and that's well he's got yeah, he has got an armchair ride because they've got such a good pack.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yeah, I mean it's wasted, it's wasted. Well what's what's your contention? They should have a slightly weaker pack and make and challenge Finn Russell more.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

I'll just say that if you're gonna pay a million pounds to Finn Russell every single week, wouldn't you want to see him doing some more rugby?

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Like this is why you would claim that they haven't won anything where like Finn Russell could have scored the try that he did. Not many other tens might might put in Arundel the way that he did.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Look, I'm I what I think that Arundel try was just a basic play, let's face it. Like most tens could pull that off, and his try was a touch forge of it. So I'm not gonna say that's world-class skill. I'd say that.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

So it's a basic play to tear through Northampton's defence on first phase off of Scrum.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yes, that that was poor defence, more so than creativity.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

I think you're being a little unkind on this kind of subtle skills on show by Russia to create it.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

It's poor it is poor defence, but it's just a pump. It's just a pump and go. It's nothing it's nothing earth-shattering. Like, far be it from me, it's a good thing. You're telling me other tenants can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

You don't have the the the abilities of a world-class fly half, David. I've seen you.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

You're telling me that other fly halves are incapable of doing a pump and a pass.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

I'm saying a lot of fly halves haven't done that against Saints, and they haven't done it in a quarterfinal European Cup. I'm what I'm what I'm saying is you know, in this in this game, he's scored one and assisted one, and he's he's kicked another 13 points. So he's got about 40% of all of their points in this game. They're you know, the two Pilotu um line out more as he comes from his kick to the corner, you know, you can we you can say that any fly-off can do it. You know, I've watched Marcus Smith miss the corner for about 90% of his attempts, and he is he's another world-class fly-alf. I think I think it's a bit um reductionist on his role. Because yes, he's got an armchair ride behind that pack, but you could also say that pack's got an armchair ride being directed around the field by Finn Russell. You know, it's it these are all elements towards a successful gameplay, you know. And I I'm really frustrated here, David, because you're forcing me into a position where I have to defend Bath, and I don't want to be that guy. We've spent all season saying you can reduce you can reduce the roll down a bit too much there.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

But we've been saying all season that Finn Russell's barely put in a performance above a six out of ten. So he's played poorly at times this season.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

I just don't think this is one of those occasions.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

No, but I just I just don't think I think I say it because I think Bath could be a really exciting team to watch with the players they have at their disposal, and they choose not to. It is an active choice because of the pack they got and the bench they've got. I would rather see them play more exciting Brand Rebbe, but they don't have to, they don't need to do that, but they've got the players to do it, they've got the best ten in the world potentially to do it, and they don't. And it's frustrating because I would rather see that than seeing the boring stuff that we see a lot of. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

As a bar fan, would you rather have be the be the type be the premier prem champions being semi-finalist cup and in line to potentially re-gain Prem?

SPEAKER_02 34:49

I completely get that point of view, and I if you are a bar fan and you're winning week in regard, you couldn't care less. But as someone trying to look at it from point of view of Prem Rugby product and things like that, I would love to see Bath Rugby full flow, Finn Russell putting in the performances we see in a Scotland shirt more regularly, or performances we saw in a Glasgow shirt, uh that Mercurial stuff, we just don't see it in a bath shirt, and it's because he doesn't have to, and I'd like to see it more. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Oh, yeah, okay, fair fair enough. Uh I I think I'm probably less inclined to agree that just because of what a what a fun game I found this to be.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Because we arendel had one carry in that game, and that was the try he scored.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Well, that is efficient. Who is efficient?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Who was their other winger? Like Huil Mieux didn't get his hands, didn't get his hands on the ball more than once or twice.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

Well, in fairness, David, in the first half, you rather ran them ragged at times, so they didn't have as much ball.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Yeah, but they had an awful lot of the ball in the second half.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

And Henry Andrel's try was in the first half. It was, it was. Um it'd be nice to see these players get an opportunity to play, and it doesn't need to be all about the pack, which you know, for me is a really difficult thing to say because I'd love the pack to be, you know, the headline players. But it's just I just I just I just want I just want better. I just want better from Bath.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

You just want to see Bath cut loose.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

I just want to see Bath cut loose and you know, play in the Saints way.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Well, if you're a Bath fan, uh get in touch ideally directly with David. Uh I'll um his his mobile phone number is.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Well, you can contact the pod. We you can text us, we just click on the link on the description and you can text us straight to us and we can respond next week. Tell David exactly what you think of them. That's absolutely fine. That's absolutely fine. Hey, if you're a Bar fan and you're happy for Finn Russell to be having a six out of seven week in, week out, and you're just you're paying a million pounds for it every season, then so be it. Uh what else is there? Is there anything else around this game? Obviously, Andrew Brace didn't have his best game. I think it's safe to say that. But I imagine there's decisions both directions that didn't go the ways of the should do. A very influential one in the Pollock situation, uh you could say. But I know there's there's question marks around some high shots um from Saints players on bath players, uh question marks over forward passes, offsides, all that. But that happens every single week in every single game. Uh and people do get too tied down to that sort of stuff. I think it's when it's big decisions that are got wrong, they're the ones that deserve a bit of reflection on perhaps on Andrew Brace's behalf, but he won't care. Um other than that, it was a fantastic advert for Prem Rugby. It was a fantastic it was a fantastic game. Uh and it was a really good occasion for the Champions Cup, quarter final, it was close, it was tense, high scoring, like forty forty-three forty-one. Like you can't ask for more than that from Knockout Rugby. Uh went down to the wire. And um I say is good luck to Bath in the next round. Uh, because don't get don't get don't get your players too tired for the Prem running, because as a Saints fan, that's our only focus now. So maybe it's a blessing in disguise.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Very magnanimous of you, David. Well, as David said, that did finish 43-41. Yeah um shall we uh talk about the the next game of the weekend, David? No, we can if you want. I've I've done my bit. Alright, well,

Glasgow Toulon And A Late Twist

SPEAKER_03 38:15

I'll talk about the next one. So Glasgow Warriors against Toulon. A game we called wrong, um, but a good game to watch, really, really tense, not quite as high scoring, um, but no shortage of um of quality on show, actually.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I thought um this was a ri this was a real display of defensive just might on both sides, I'd say. Like the defences both both sides of the pitch was in was just very impressive.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Yeah, it it was it was phenomenal. I I I have to say I really enjoyed this one for very dissimilar reasons to the Friday night game. Um I think Glasgow were excellent to watch at times, you know. Do you know what they should have done?

SPEAKER_02 38:55

They should have kicked to the corner more and done more malls and some close-up carrying, and they really needed to tighten the game up and be less exciting.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yeah, yeah, they should have been more efficient. Um there's a load of players on the Glasgow side I'll I'd I'd love to call out. I'd pick up some names. I thought Josh McKay at fullback was phenomenal. Yeah, Carl Stane, really influential again. Um captain. Uh Stafford McDowell.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Currently keeping Hugh Jones out of the squad.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Uh outrageously good. He's so I always forget how big he is. He is enormous. He's probably about six foot five. Um, but great skill set on him as well. I think he's he's one that I would I'd like to see more uh in uh in the Scottish lineup, actually. I think I think him and Twikilotu doveted really well in this game. Um a player I've not seen loads of. I think probably unfairly I'd um dismissed as a as a bit of a nepotism for for being in particular in the Racing 92 squad. Um Dan Lancaster, Stu Lancaster's boy.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah, I think he was excellent. There was a lot of he I saw a lot of people talk about this before the game saying this could be the decision that makes or breaks Franco Smith, because a lot of people thought it was the wrong decision to make, but I think he proved his doubters wrong.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

He absolutely stood up to the test on this one. He was superb. I I haven't really seen much of him play.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

I'd heard he didn't do well at Rassing.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

No, I I I'd heard about his time at Racing and I'd heard some grumblings from Glasgow stuff, but um this is the first time I've really seen him play. I thought he was phenomenal. And I'm a big Adam Hastings fan as a he's a former Gloucesterman, but no, Darren Lancaster I really really enjoyed watching. I thought he was good at 10, I thought he was good when he stepped in at fullback, um, kicked really well, ran well. I yeah, big fan of his. I you know, I thought that was excellent. Um Afshar at nine, um, stepping in for I think George Horn in all his start. Yeah, I've seen bits of Afshar in the European Cup this season and thought he looked a tidy player. I thought he was excellent in this one, controlled the game really a really busy nine. Um, but I think it's is it Patrick Schickling, the loose heads? Yeah, ex-Worcester Warrior. Ex Worcester Warrior. Yeah. Big hard bastard. Uh Harry's really well, scrumaged well as well, actually. Yeah, yeah, he's a good player. Um, Hiddleston at Hooker, a player I'm baffled isn't getting isn't starting for Scotland with his wife. You and Ashman look Ewan Ashman's really good. I think and I think Ewan Ashman would be very good for Scotland, but Tom Hiddleston's darts are perfect at this point.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Gregor Hiddleston Tom Hiddleston's an actor.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Sorry, Gregor Hiddleston. Tom, yeah, apologies to Gregor Hiddleston. Tom Hiddleston's a very different um character. Um Gregor Hiddleston. I'll just go with Hiddleston. His darts are perfect. I mean, his lineup throwing in you know, competitive um atmosphere with the likes of Ribbons and Capoku and Olivon and Mezu all challenging, it his darts were phenomenal. Yeah, he controls the lineup. I mean, I know Glasgow score a lot of mall tries, I think that's kind of their um their specialty in the URC in particular, but he just marshals it at the back there, and you know, and there is a skill in that being able to know when to go and know how to manage that mall. Um, so I thought he was excellent again. And in the back row, particularly Rory Darge, just superb. I think Rory Rory Darge is so good on the ball, he is, he's so dynamic on the ball.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

He's one of these players that it's like he's chronically underrated, but he's also incredibly well-rated. It's hard to put your thing right because like everyone knows he's brilliant, but they're not saying quite how brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I like every single week, every time I see him play, he impresses me tremendously.

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Yeah. Um, and then on the Toulon side, uh, Ben White, excellent. Yeah, uh Albanaz, excellent. I I I really like look at Tuesuvu. Yeah, uh, I love watching Senzel because he looks about 45 and he's still brilliant. Um and he's he is he is a good looking man for his age. He's great, he's grayed really well.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Let's let's add him to Raw's romantic uh my Rolodex of Ruby Men I Fancy. Yeah, that's it, yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Um Drean Pressive once again. I mean, he's just electrical. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's he's unfortunate that he's in such a crowded field for for being on the wing for France, but yes, he is absolutely electric. Um up front, uh Gross getting his getting his second try ever, his too long career. Nice moment for him. Um Sinkler and Ribbons, rolling back the years, both really, really busy.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Um I'm assuming you're building to I was I was hoping you're building to Capoku. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Capoku, I mean, yellow card aside, yeah. God, he's good, but good in a really good.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

He's 2021. Uh interesting career. Interesting career he's had. Like he's bouncing around France.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

It's in pay the money, getting back, whatever you've got to do, for God's sake, pay the money.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Did you see the stat that? Every single carry he made was dominant. Just he made meters every carry.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

It's insane. He's so good. Yeah, we have to get him back at some point. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then the player I'm gonna reserve special praise for though is actually Nacho Brex. Yes, um, his try. His try to win. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

He did look like he was running in custard for a little bit of it, but he still managed to get away.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

What I love about him, he's so all action. Yeah, you know, he's got great hands, so he takes you know, he starts he he steps up as first receiver constantly, he marshals the defence, he's constantly involved, he's you know, he's never taken a back seat in play, and then at the end of it, he's just got that bit of magic dust to pull out something like that. That that kind of step and the shimmy, and then just accelerating into the corner. I thought, yeah, I annoyingly I took him out of my fantasy team, which really frustrated me because he hadn't got me loads of points the previous week.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

I've forgotten about fantasy rugby these last two rounds, so it's it's yours for taking, Rory. I'm very middle of the pack.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

But I this was just an absolutely engrossing game. Um, I think Glasgow will be gutted to not have taken more opportunities when they had them. Um key times, but under pressure from what is a quality Toulon outfit. And you know, they're a very different club to the one that we watched growing up with the Galacticos. Yeah, very, very different club, but there is a there's something quite magical still about the Toulon name for me, just off the back of that. But there's you see Toulon a play, and you're like, Yeah, I do want to watch that.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

Oh, I do also quite like there's also like an almost like a an English link to the Toulons. There's quite a strong core of kind of English-based players, or maybe not maybe British-based players, and it's kind of rung true ever since Wilkins been Wilco's been there, and it does kind of give this like affinity to there's an affinity to Toulon that I think most English fans will have, and still do to this day, and I think that's part of the magic for this for me, seeing them go and win against Glasgow. Because seeing the likes of David Ribbons, Carl Sinkler, Ben White, uh Capoku, like it's just lovely. It's lovely. Yeah, Zach Mercer had a great game. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's something I do like too long. I'd it's not the Galacticos, but they've they've built a really interesting squad and they play a really interesting round of rugby.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

Yeah. Then I they you know they're not as gung-ho as your borders or Toulouse, but they're they just do you know what they are, David? Is they're very efficient in a way that you would have criticized if they had they been from somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

But uh I they they definitely don't play the same way, but they are efficient. I don't see I don't see Gail Drian scoring two tries for Bath put it that way.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

The other thing, the one with um Shoshvili, the Georgian teenager at eight. Yeah, oh he's uh so he's he's one of the things.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Yeah, how he's a teenager and not uh sort of 40-year-old UFC heavyweight, I don't know, but he is I I spotted him in the uh the under 20 World Cup last year, but I think he played in and he He's one to watch. Uh as a number of Georgians that are worth watching that are coming through the French Academies at the moment. Uh I think he's probably leading the way because the fact he's an 18-year-old starting playing for Toulon at 18 in the back row in the Champions Cup final.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

That's no um that's no easy thing. No, um you know the you know if you've got Zach Mercer on the bench because he's starting, yeah. That's he's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

He's gonna be good, and you know, he's got a bit more bulking out to do. Although I think Georgians they they do their bulking around nine or ten, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 47:38

Yes, I believe those are the bear wrestling years.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Wait, no, is that is that racist? I don't know. No, surely not. If you if you're Georgian, let us know. Yeah, it's a compliment in any way. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

Well, I there's something about Georgians playing in France. Yeah. They they're it's quite who's um who was the lad who played for Claremont for Zig Ash Zig Zig Ashvili, the tighthead, grizzled old tighter played for Clermont for years and years and years. I mean, if anyone checked about he must have been about 50 by the last time he stopped playing for Clermont, and he I think it was Zigash Villi or something like that, and he just just the most gnarled looking prop in the world, and he was just so dangerous at Strum Time when Claremont were in their pomp as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's players like that that just created this reputation for Georgian props just being hard as granite, and they are uh generally. Um because Gorgodson was at Toulon, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Like I forgot about how good how Gorgodsa was as well. He's there's been some serious egg players.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

This isn't reminisce about George old Georgian players, but I I would put I would appear on that pod if there is one.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Yeah, yeah. Invites are welcome to uh if there is such a thing. I'm sure there is something somewhere. Um but yeah, like that too long performance. It is it it warmed the cockles, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

It warmed the cockles. Um well I'm looking forward to their their semi-final because I'm giving them more than a punch's chance in that one.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Yes, I think that feels like a good segue into the next game because we've been quite you know effusive about some really good rugby over the last two fixtures we've just spoken about.

Leinster Grind Sale Down

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Uh the next quarter final between Leinster and Sale Sharks, on the other hand.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Nick said good.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

It was a struggle. Uh it was Okay. Credit where credit's due. Sale Sharks really forced Leinster into a really ugly way of playing rugby. And they kept like Sanderson said at the start he just wants to keep Leinster close, and they done that uh up until the the half time, like it was close. There was there wasn't there wasn't a score in it. Like, so it was 7'3 at half time.

SPEAKER_03 49:51

I mean, it's not it's not the hallmarks of uh fireworks going off, was it? Oh, it was dower, it was dower, like yeah. No, I think did you see the headline from is it Matt Williams, the Aussie coach who's knocks around Irish telly at the moment, he's always coming up with awful takes, and he I think he accused Sale of being morally repugnant or something in how they approach this competition.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

I mean, something it was so it sounds like something weird today.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

Yeah, I know. It was such a it's such an awful sort of take that I would have said about Bath or Harlequins. Um and I I suspect they just played that in the build-up and they were we'll show them what's morally repugnant, and just decided to go and yeah, I you know I don't know if there's anything morally repugnant about that.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

I think they they had a game plan and they executed it actually quite well. Um they they they forced Leinster to play uncomfortably, and it it just it led to quite a not it wasn't the prettiest game, but Leinster had just as much to do with that as Sale did.

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Um it's just as well only one man and his dog turn up to watch it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Yeah, I don't know if that's like they're fighting. Why can't Leinster fill out that stadium? I know they're waiting for the RDS to come available, um, but that was that was not a good showing from from the Leinster fan base that's supposed to be barely filled out the bottom tier. Yeah, not great, but maybe that maybe they're just being morally repugnant and not showing Sale Sharks the respect um that they warranted for a quarter final of a European competition. Um there's there's not too much to uh basically Leinster Leinster's class kind of shone through in the second half where they managed to score a few tries and then it became a bit more comfortable because they realized that Sale probably didn't have an answer for it, so it was kind of a sure thing.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

What what I would um what's one of the interesting things that has come out this match, and you know, not many interesting things came out of this match, but Leinster are now down to one Lucid in their squad. Yes, because came here who they'd already signed as injury cover. Um so unless they unless any players are due back before they play too long, that could have some very interesting consequences for for that battle up front. Carl Sinker would be licking his lips at playing against. I mean, they're they're talking about bringing people out of retirement, calling them up from the um the Irish Irish lower leagues, you know, it's dire times for them in the propping department.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

Um we don't have to dwell on this one, do we, David? I mean it's no I'll be honest. I you know, I don't particularly like Leinster, I never really have.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

What I heard, Rory, is that you thought they're morally repugnant.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Morally, I question their character. Um you know, often have great players, sometimes play great rugby, ruthlessly efficient, you know, a winning machine, but it's it's it's hard to it's they're a hard team to like. They get you know, they they get it all they've got it all their own way, you know. It's compared to the likes of Connell and Ulster and even Munster, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all goes Leinster's way.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

And I just you know Rory, knowing the game that talking about this game is holding us up from talking about, uh, I'm more than happy for us to move on to the fourth quarter final, which is between I mean that one finished in the end, it finished Leinster 43, sale 13.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

Um, it was 7-3 at half time. Leinster, you know, broke the sale um resistance early on in the second half and never really looked back. But um, yeah, all in all, not one for the not one for the archives.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Not at all.

SPEAKER_03 53:20

Uh but can we just talk about Border to lose?

Bordeaux Toulouse And World Class Chaos

SPEAKER_02 53:24

So my my overall thought from this that this had absolutely hallmarks of like one of the classic heavyweight boxing fights where to start with it was kind of two masters of their craft throwing jabs trying to pick out the weaknesses.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Yeah, they were they were really boxing at the start, weren't they?

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Just it it it creating creating the angles and uh second half comes along, and then here come the heyman, here come the uppercuts, here come the combos, and it was just an absolute feast.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

And it it's a it's a it's a good analogy for it because it's it's one of those ones where sometimes sometimes if you were just to follow this on the teletext, yeah, you would you wouldn't have understood how exciting a game this was to watch. There's there's something sometimes about watching two of the best teams ever, certainly two of the best teams on the planet right now, duking it out like that. And it a game that properly builds to like a full-on crescendo. And you know, Toulouse comes storming out of the blocks, you know, they will be where that what Toulouse will root is then that first sort of 15 minutes or so when they were well on top, they couldn't get a score on.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

Then uh La Motta scores line out more, I think is on the about just before the 25-minute mark. Yeah, Toulouse go back down the other end of the pitch, and Entermac finishes off really well after some really good pressure, but they you know just immediately trading blows. Teddy Tomas scores a lovely one right before half time, so 5-12 at halftime, and you're like, oh, this is this could go anywhere at the moment, and then just the magic, yeah. Janabert Camoufuna just rolling back the years again, yeah, Retiere at the end. But you know, I the for me stars of the show, uh obviously Sardi's legs. We've talked about um his Sardi's thighs in the past, um but uh the absolute stars of the show. I thought Walkie in the background was superb. You know, it's easy to forget how good a player is because he's not doesn't get the look in with France so much now, but what a good player he is. Um Luku, nine, you know, in the battle of Luku DuPont, Luku came out on top for me.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Yeah, and a lot of it was like Luku's breakdown work, like he was like an absolute pest around the breakdown, like he was getting jackals in and just disrupting ball like maybe every other rocket felt like like he was everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Imagine a game where Luku isn't considered the best nine on the pitch. I mean, outrageous, outrageous. Um Rayasi, a fullback, yeah. Yeah, I think just I think he's I think he's only like 20, 21.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Have you seen the rumours that they might have to release him in order to resign BLBRA's mega contract extension? Yeah, I mean, everyone get on the Northampton.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Come on, yeah, yeah, just but they were you know just superb. Um uh on the Toulouse side. I thought Tom Aramos, I mean, we all know I fancy him.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Yeah, he's he's in the Rollodex.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Yeah, he's absolutely the Rollodex. I thought he was excellent, yeah. Uh Chocobares, yeah, Nails, absolute nails, um Malvaca, uh Geolange, Kraus, but back Willis.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

Do you know what the most frustrating thing around this is it just reaffirms that is there any other sport in any other realm where the best club team in world rugby has their best player in it and doesn't get picked for their international team? Because I firmly believe Jack Willis is the best player in that Talise team, including DuPont. Because I think I think this season for certain he's been more influential than DuPont has, and then to Mac and anyone else in that team.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

Well, I don't know if you caught it on comms. It you know, it was a bit of a flippant comment, but they were saying that in training, whenever there's short-sighted games or there's you know the the um doing run throughs or whatever it is, everyone always wants Jack Willis on their team, and he's the first one they're after before before even DuPom. Yeah. So Jack Willis is the one that they all want.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Um I'm starting to think that I I've said for a while that like DePom, like maybe best player of the world. I I think Jack Willis has got to be in that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

He's got to be in the conversation at this point. He's so good. And this is in a losing team. At this point, not picking him and Tom Willis is is a dereliction of duty by the RFU.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

I th all they need to do is just put some sort of clause into this system so it's in in moments of extreme class, a player can be picked if they are based outside of. Because it just it feels like an absolute travesty that these players are not going to play for England when they are clearly good enough, and if we genuinely have hopes of winning competitions, we're just shooting ourselves in the feet, not selecting these players because they level up any team they're in.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Just look, I mean, he levels up to lose. That's how good he is, he levels up to lose, and they're the best team in the world. Yeah, although they did lose. So they did lose, and uh and to be fair, Bordeaux. Bordeaux may be the best team in the world, yeah. Well, I mean, I I don't know where you start to to analyse them. There is no weakness in their game. Um, Jefferson Poirot at times is is uh like a six, and but whilst also being able to scrummage against Aldegieri, um his red card was a big turning point.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Although Toulouse played some of their best rugby when they had 14 men as well, which is odd.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Yeah, no, they're perverse, they're a perverse team. They just they it's it's difficult to know what um what to make a Toulouse at times because the the moments when they're good, it's just it's just outrageous. Um, but you know, you've got Adam Coleman in the second row, just Demon in the line out, Harry and well, Arloo as well. It's I don't know, it's I don't know how to analyze them, honestly, David. I I think I need you to step in for a moment and try and analyze them because it's it's not really a sentence, it's a sensation watching bought at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

It's it's a really odd one because they don't necessarily do like the miraculous stuff that you see from Toulouse. But I think it's a it's a mixture of they are absolutely ferocious at the breakdown. Uh so I think I think a name that you haven't quite picked up like mentioned there, like so I think Bochaton uh his work at the breakdown is unreal, and they just make every single ruck an absolute contest, physical mess. Like their their set piece is so so solid, so strong. And then when you've got Luku and Jalabert at 9-10, um you have to remember, like they they were playing with Deporter, who is injured, and you should be back for the semi-final, they slot Penno in at 13. Yeah. Like what team can just slot Penno in at 30? And then you've got Riasi at fullback, uh one ring, Bielberay on the other, and like this isn't even their full strength back line, and then they are on I I think it it's almost like the defence that they absolutely suffocated to lose at times. Like what teams we saw what Toulouse did last week, they absolutely tore up and they just suffocated to lose. And I I think a big part of Bordeaux's game that doesn't probably get the credit because a lot of the headlines are Bielberay's kick chase and his ability to score tries from anywhere, Jalabert's magic. It's their defence, and it's the fact that they are absolutely ferocious and they stop everything at source, it seems, which is at the ruck, because I think what they do at ruck time is better than anyone else in club rugby. And I think that's why they are so good and so hard to beat. And I think that's why Bath don't have a chance in hell, because I don't think a team in England, France, Scotland, or Ireland is has got a team able to match it at the moment. And I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

Yeah, I I don't disagree. I don't disagree, I don't know who beats Bordeaux at the moment. No, um I don't think any c I don't think any club team in the world beats Bordeaux.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

No, not as it stands, and I think of the teams left in the competition, it feels like a pretty safe bet uh where the trophy's staying this year. If I'm honest. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

Yeah, I think you're right. Look, but Bath will go down to Bordeaux.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

They'll try, they'll do their best.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Absolutely believe me that they can go and win that game. And look, bigger upsets have happened. But they will have to be at 110% in the game. Like you the the thing for Bath in that game is they will have to be so emotionally on it in that one that it actually could put pay to their ability to defend the Prem title. Yeah, you may not be able to summon enough energy to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

I mean, maybe Bath would say, well, they've got a squad that can they can rotate that well enough to handle it, but I I think we saw in the Saints game, because I think Northampton are probably the first team in the while that I've seen they other than one penalty, they had an answer to the Bath Scrum and the Bath line out. Um Bordeaux will not have any like they'll probably target the Bath Scrum because I don't think I think we're starting to see the impact of them losing Will Stewart for the season because Billy Seller is going to be a great tighthead prop, but he doesn't have that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:34

If he's doing it against Jefferson Poirot, probably not.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

And then De Toy came on, came off the bench, and he wasn't able to turn the tide as much as he has to the other person. Bordeaux will have the answers to that. When you've got Tammy Funu and Carly Sadie and Poirot and I can't remember who the other prop is uh Pechot, I think it is. Peugeot, yeah. Like Bordeaux aren't gonna be worried. And that that's what they did to Northampton. They absolutely terrorise the Northampton Scrum, and Northampton had the answer to the Bath Scrum. So I think the weapons that Bath use as their their their groundwork, their base, probably aren't gonna be that effective against Bordeaux. And that's and when you're playing in Bordeaux itself, it's a tough assignment. But I hope they go for it, because I think you're right. I th I think if if they did want to go for it and they wanted to go full full throttle for it, they're gonna have to make some compromises with their Prem form and maybe give up top spot in the league in the playoffs, for instance, or something like that. Yeah. Um but we'll see, we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

We we may get a foot race against BLBRA and Arundel. Lovely stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Lovely stuff. I don't I I who wins that. I'd love to see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

BLBRA. I want to see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:35

I want to see it. I I've I think that's probably as close a competition as we're gonna see between two wingers in that sort of race. Certainly a full length race would be full length of the pitch. Uh but yeah, so that's the quarterfinals, Rory. Um three out of four of those games were brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Which is more than we could have asked for, because some sometimes this competition doesn't serve the spectacles we wanted. And actually, I'd say the last two weeks we've been spoiled. We've had some really good games last week. Some really good games. So fair play. Well done. Well done to the clubs involved for putting on the shows. Now, slight change of pace,

Wata Ranker Players By Height

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Rory. Before we move on to talking about England's women, a nice little game of Wata Ranker. Now, last week they introduced this new game for us. Something to break up the the content. Um it's all about giving Rory uh 40-ish seconds to give me a list of clubs, players, rugby related things in order. Uh from lowest to highest. Can I have at least two seconds to comprehend what it is I'm being asked this this time? Yes, absolutely. I'll give you I'll give you a bit of time. So this week, Rory, I'm going to give you 45 seconds. And the challenge I have for you, and this is a challenge that I'm going to put out to a listener if they wish to participate, is in 45 seconds, I want you to name as many players as you can, without crossing over the barrier of not being in the right order, of shortest to tallest in world rugby. This can be women's players. Women's players, men's players, sevens players. I want you to n list as many players as you can that remain in order, going from shortest to tallest. Currently playing now can be former players. I just want any anyone who's played rugby, and I want to see how many players you can name from that shortest player to the tallest, and keep it in that order. And how many do you think you could do? Oh, that's tough. I'll have a go. I reckon I can I reckon I can hit double figures. Double figures, okay. You have 45 seconds starting now.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Okay, I'll start Lucas Friday, Antoine DuPont, uh Billy Sell, uh Jack Van Porfleet, Damian Dialende, Rico Yuani, uh Charna Cunningham South, Charlie Yules, Nate Williams, Adam Coleman, uh four story Rory, who's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Arnold. Time's up, Rory. Luke Chartres. Time's up. You don't get Luke Chartris. Well, thanks to the power of editing, Rory, I'm about to tell you results. Now there's going to be some frustration here. So Lucas Friday starts off at 1.76 metres. Yeah. I fear he may have grown since you last watched him play because he is actually two centimetres taller than Anton DePont, who's only 1.7.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:23

Oh, he was the shortest player I could think of.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:26

So you've actually failed at the first hurdle. What I will do is there is credit in the bank here. So Billy Sells 1.78, so that's a two cent no four centimetre incremental increase. Van Portfleet's 1.83. Damien DLND's 1.89. Rico Iwani's also 1.89, so I'll give you that one. That's not going down. Cunningham South's 1.96. Charlie Yule's 1.99. So that's a solid six in a row. That is good. That's good going. Unfortunately, Elliot Williams is only 1 meter 96, but he is only 18, so I'll let him off. Adam Coltman's 2 metres and 7, and Rory Arnold's 2 metres and 8. So there's some really good, like small increments you've done there, but it's just a couple of.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

I can't believe I failed at the first hurdle. I'm so rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

Unfortunately, your score is one. So if anyone thinks they could do better at Rory at a similar, similar sort of uh game, please. Oh, bloody hell. But you know, that's a bit of fun. That's a bit I think that's better than last week's effort, I'd say. A bit more fun. Bit more fun for everyone involved. Uh. Now we've got that light-hearted banter out of the way, Rory. Let's talk

Red Roses Start Women’s Six Nations

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

red roses. Let's talk serious rugby. Uh obviously the Six Nations women's iteration kicked off this last weekend. Uh it's only fair that we at least give, you know, being very conscious of the time we got available to us, we at least talk about the Red Roses and their fixture against Ireland uh in their efforts to defend their title.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:57

Yeah, look, I think first and foremost, comprehensive win in front of 72,000 fans.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

77, I think it was in the end, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:04

77 in the end, was it by me? So, you know, firstly, amazing effort to get that many down there. Um, I think that must be by some distance a record in the women's six nations. Yeah, got a lot of things. Um they Ireland are a tricky side, they got some really quality players, you know, the likes of uh Ifa Waifer, uh Ju Gang, uh uh Erin Lane. Is it Erin Lane at nine? Yeah. Uh O'Brien is a really good ten, I think. Um Erin King, I think it is at seven. You know, there's a lot of really, really good players in that team. Um, and this is a different team to the one that won the uh World Cup in um uh last year. So there are some some changes to that team, partly through absences through pregnancies, partly through retirements, the coaching setup's different. Um they had to overcome a couple of quite nasty um tournament ending injuries to Mo Hunt and Mo Wenna Talang, is it? That's the one, yeah. Um she plays in the position they really don't want to lose anyone because uh yeah, where they're now looking there's a real dearth of experience in in the second row. So um so look to win 33-12 is is no mean feat in in those circumstances, uh, and some really um commendable displays in there, I thought uh Roland at 12 was and 12 and wing and everywhere she stepped in at was really good, kicked her goals really well, scored a couple of really good touchfinders. Um I think uh Jess Breach showed some really good toe for her try. It's sometimes when you're up again when you're alongside, often seen alongside Ellie Kildung, yeah, it's it's often hard to be seen as quick, and she got a real opportunity to to um you know open the taps and and put the afterburners on. It was good to see. Um, you know, I thought Maloney McDonald really nice touch for Sarah Burns' second try, you know, and yet the a lot of the same things that you expect from from England performances, you know, the pack was was combative and great at the set piece and you know, all that kind of stuff. But I don't think it came together exactly as they would have wanted. No, I think there's growth in the performance, uh or room for growth in the performance, I should say. Um, but you know, the this winning machine just rumbles on, you know, the red roses. I I think the challenge for them is can they develop into into an all-court kind of game? I know Meg Jones has kind of thrown that gauntlet down at the start of the tournament. They haven't succeeded entirely in this game, flashes of it, but the players are certainly there. I think when the look you've got the likes of Lucy Packer and Holly Herson as your halfbacks, there's enough excitement in that team to to pull something like that off. Um, but probably I suspect they'll come away with, like all sort of ruthless winning machines do, they'll come away with as many frustrations in their performance as um the back for the win.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I al I I do also think I I kind of stand by what I said last week that I do think the competitions well catching up to a degree. I I think the likes of Ireland are getting better. I think we saw it in the other games, like the the France-Italy game was actually quite close.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:18

Um, yeah, well, it was 5-0 at half time, you know. Uh Wales would be disappointed not to have won that game against Scotland. I don't know if you saw some of the under-18 results last week. France beat the French under-eighteens beat the England under 18, something like 75-7. I I uh there's a lot to be under the yeah. And the Italian under eighteen the Italian under-eighteens also, I believe, beat the England under-18s.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

Yes, I think there's there's a lot to be said about French and Italian age grade rugby at the moment, both of which men's and women's getting the better of the English counterparts at that under-18 Six Nations tournament. Obviously, I don't I don't want to dwell too much on all that sort of stuff because there's there's lots of reasons for why that may be. But I think French and Italian and similarly Spanish rugby are definitely all going in the right direction in the the youth setups. Um they're they're all doing some really interesting and good stuff, and I think I think French rugby's in a strong position right now, but they could be getting stronger, which you know could be a bit of a concern for Six Nations competition. But it's uh up to the RFU and the other home nations to come up to answers for that. You have to respond. Yeah. But yes, there's a very impressive machine whirring through the French age grade system at the moment. Uh and it's interesting, as you say, yeah, I did spot that 85 point thrashing by French under 18 women. Uh that doesn't happen very often to English sides. Uh so yeah, it's it's one to keep an eye on for sure. But the uh the Italian senior the senior Italian women really ran the French women close.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

Yeah, it doesn't look like it if you just look at the final score, but the fact that it was 7-0 at half time, you know, I think you can see where depth and fitness and maybe some some strengthen kind of um structures around um the setup were were in favour of France. But um that Italian side of no mugs, you know, there's some really, really good players in there and and they run them really close. Um, Wales would be gutted not to have won the game, Scotland would be be relieved, and you know, we know that Scotland are a hot and cold team, so to to win games like that is actually quite um an achievement for them at times because they don't necessarily cope with the pressure um as well in those moments. Um, but England, you know, getting over the line in a game like that with you know lots to work on but lots to to to be happy about is not a bad position for them to be in. No, you know, they'll they'll still be confident about going unbeaten in this tournament, but you know, the with I think probably one eye on uh the France game in a few weeks to as certainly gonna be their biggest test. But um no, I look I think you should never you should never complain when you win. And and 33-12 is a good win against any Irish side as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

Yeah, yeah, I I completely agree. I I I think the main thing for me is that I think that the Irish side looked a lot better than they have done in previous years.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

No, I I I think you're seeing the benefit in the Irish side of um more of those players being involved in the uh PWR. Um something which potentially benefits some other nations around the world, Canada, New Zealand, best. Um there's a reason they're not coming to that competition. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of Welsh players in that league, particularly in Gloucester. Um the strength of that competition is is it's an interesting effect that it's gonna have on the wider competition. You know, actually, to an extent the RFU are gonna have to start thinking about okay, well, how do we kind of protect our own pipeline here?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

But um Yeah, the opposite problem of um oh how do how do we make sure that our players are playing uh rather than the ones not leaving and not selecting the ones abroad? It's like, oh, how do we make sure we can get them all playing in our device?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:59

Thank god the RFU is um is so well set up to deal with such uh dichotomy of problems.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:04

Um but something you said in the past, like women's rugby have they do things differently in women's rugby. Did you see the TFO? I don't even know what a TFO is, but do you see that thing they had up at the up Twickenham? Like it's a big like banner that gets raised in the stand, a bit like um you see in like German football.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:21

Oh, right, yes, yes, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:23

I thought it's just another example of women's rugby innovating and trying something different.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:29

And you know, not being afraid to have a bit of fun with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Exactly. So more of that, please.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

It doesn't have to just be about, you know gravy ties. Gravy ties, or you know, if I'm honest, the things that I tend to do at rugby games, which is drinking twelve pints of Guinness. You can just go and have a good time watching rugby.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

Apparently so.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

And and then that's a Gloucester fan, so I'm gonna still drink the Guinness, but I'm glad that other people have found their own ways to enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

Uh but yeah, we'll look forward to the rest of the competition, Rory, uh see how the red roses fare. Uh as you say, I think that that that matchup against France in a couple weeks' time is probably the key one. But uh from a from a red rose perspective, I'd still be hoping that they go unbeaten. But Remain to be seen. Uh but this has been pretty actually a jam-packed podcast for us, Rory. Uh lots of yeah. Yeah, we've got through social stuff there. Most of it has been me moaning about Bath, but that's fine. I'm happy to wear that. Um but do you have any final thoughts for the listener before we bring the podcast to a close?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:30

I would like to uh be the curator for uh this year's charity naked calendar from the top fourteen, and I get to pick all the players I want to see in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:40

And on that note, listener, that's the end of this episode. Uh we've been Rucktables overables. Make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and all those other fun things. And we'll be back again next week with some Prem Rugby content. Terra.