S2 Ep 26 - Six Nations Super Saturday Sojourn

Ninety-four points in Paris will do funny things to your mood as an England fan. One minute we’re watching England finally play with ambition, carry hard, and move the ball like a proper Test side. The next, we’re staring at another late swing, another lesson in game management, and Thomas Ramos doing what Thomas Ramos does from the tee.

We take Super Saturday in order and pull out what actually mattered. Ireland v Scotland is a masterclass in control, built on breakdown dominance, ruthless phase play, and a squad that suddenly looks deeper than we thought, with Jack Crowley and McCloskey giving Andy Farrell real options. Wales v Italy is the feel-good story, with Wales’ pack finally fronting up, Dan Edwards announcing himself, and Italy getting a sharp reminder that backing up a big week is the hardest skill in international rugby.

Then it’s France v England, the match of the tournament and a proper England rugby post-mortem: Finn Smith’s intent, Ben Spencer’s balance, Chesham’s hero moments, and the same old problems around edge defence and discipline when pressure hits. We finish by asking the only question that matters now: can England make this level their benchmark before South Africa away, or was Paris a one-off?

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Transcript

Welcome And Weekend Catch-Up

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Rex Malls and Hobs. That's right, it's the Fans Favourite Rugby Podcast back once again with the fans favourite. I'd like to think rugby podcast hosts is me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, as ever, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hello, hello listeners. Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Ha, hello Rory. Uh yeah, I'm very, very well, thank you. Uh, more to the point, have you recovered from your uh ill health of last week and technical difficulties? How how are things going in Casa Casa Rory?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Casa Rory, tech wise, we're absolutely fine. Health wise, we're about 80% of the way there.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

We'll take that. We'll take that uh every day of the week, I'd say 80%.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

80% is pretty much good enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

It's the new 100% I heard. Uh how about uh your weekend exploits?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Any rugby to just kind of canter us through or any No games this week, no games this weekend, just an opportunity to go and hang out with a few uh few mates and bloody enjoy Super Saturday, which is what I did. And uh did require some revision, but pre-podcast to remind myself of just the finer details of the games.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I imagine there are some of the memories may have been a bit hazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Um there are a couple of tries from the England game I did not remember.

Man V Fat Referee Meltdown

SPEAKER_01 1:25

That's fine, it's just a good excuse to watch it back again. Oh yeah, I've just remembered how that game ended. Uh well, so uh well Rory, as we've discussed, I've gone back to man versus fat, right? Yeah. Um what's one thing that everyone always says about old DMJ on the rugby pitch? It's fan over three metres. It's just that he he's a cool, calm, collected customer, uh um, but he doesn't stand for injustice.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

You I mean you you are so keen on justice.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

So keen on justice, and you know, it turns out there's a referee at Man V Fat now who just kind of boils my my buttons a little bit, and I had a little hiss I had a little hissy fit. I had a little hissy fit, Rory. You're kicking off at Man V Fat. Not kicking off, just you know, toys out of pram stuff. But paint a picture for me. Uh entirely warranted, I I would add. Uh it's just the inconsistency, Rory. Uh I the the captain of our team rightfully challenged the referee. He says he's uh he's ignoring the offside line in in favour of attacking play. Fine. I'm all for a bit of Jouet. Um but when I have three tries chalked off for me being offside when other players have done the exact same thing, and I've deliberately done what other players have been allowed to do, and I'm the one getting pinged. I'm not having it, Rory. I'm not having it. So being singled out.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

I mean it's falling foul of your own celebrity, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

It's an anti-podcaster rhetoric that's developed in this referee's brain. That's the only thing I can think of.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Because this is how we don't move the sport forward when people are against those of us just creating content.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

I know. He's well, someone came up to me and said, Oh, we're here to lose weight. And I said, I'm not gonna lose weight being, you know, stood on the side of the pitch throwing my toys out the pram. I'm here for content, I'm here to have fun. And the referee got in the way of both of those things by just being plain old anti-DMJ. Um But one thing I did learn, one thing I did learn, Rory, is um I came back on obviously after cooling down a bit, and I played angry. I played angry, Rory. Turns out that's when some of my best rugby comes out because uh we absolutely turned it round and stormed home to a victory. So yeah, it's team red, team red, the scale sharks, and um you know, I'm not saying redemption arc. It's a bit early for that perhaps. Uh we're not not saying that. We're not not saying that, and you know, I look forward for the ref to try to get his own back for the remainder of the season because I feel it's a personal attack on me personally, and uh I will not be stopped, Rory, in my mission to score tries and in you know the sidelines lose weight, uh, but mainly to score tries.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I completely sympathise. I've uh I've had run-ins with a few referees this year in my uh in my role as captain of the lions, and uh I tell you what, I'd I'd like to think of myself as a bit of a diplomat, David, but uh at uh at certain points this season uh it's gotten a bit dicey.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, well it's when it's just when they're so obviously wrong and then they double down on their wrongness.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Wrong! Why were we wrong?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I know I'm always right, they're always wrong. It's just get on board, referees. Uh but you know, I'll keep you posted on how the season goes.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

I imagine this won't be the last time I'll be talking about this referee because And the the important Man V Fat uh metrics, how are they uh how are they trending? We don't talk about those, Rory. Oh right, okay. Well we'll we'll give that a s give that a swerve.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

We'll give that a swerve this week.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Let's just say I'm Are we heading north rather than south?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

We're heading north rather than south at the moment, put it that way. Um but you know, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Although both of those would be good for losing weight.

Six Nations Tournament Verdict

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Both of those would be good for losing weight, and both of them do not sound very appealing right now. That's enough about me, Rory. That's enough about you, Rory. We need to talk about the proper stuff. Let's get into it. This weekend, obviously, super Saturday. Final round, final round of the Six Nations. I think maybe before we dig into the games per se, overall generic feelings about the tournament as a whole, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I mean, you I I'd have to I have to step outside of my role as England fan. Um, and looking at it objectively, it's one of the best tournaments ever. It's one of the best six nations in history. Absolute twists and turns week on week. Um, you never, I mean, literally up until the final whistle, you did not know how it was going to finish.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Um I think the the art I think every team in in the tournament, every single team has got a fascinating narrative for how this tournament's played out. For better or worse, every single one you come away and you go, There's a s there's a proper story as to how this team has traversed the the last six weeks. Um you know, every year we we say it as rugby fans, it's the greatest tournament of any sport in the world. It just delivers, it just always delivers, and it's it's delivering more than ever now as the gaps between the teams are so close at the moment. You know, they may not stay like this forever, you know, these things if teams fall away, teams you know, teams improve, but 2026 absolutely delivered a phenomenal tournament.

Ireland’s Phase Play Squeezes Scotland

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, I I completely echo uh that. I thought I think it was it's definitely been one of the best. You do have to take that uh England Rose tinted hat off uh in order to step back and really appreciate for what the tour it was, because uh for certain groups of fans, like you say, there there is a narrative there, perhaps not necessarily a most positive one for the England fan, uh, but we could touch on that a little bit. Um but I do think the tournament as a whole really delivered in terms of quality of rugby, I think was generally really, really good. I think each team did not really let themselves five out of six teams didn't let themselves down most weeks. Um and you know, I I think we have stumbled into a phase of the six nations life cycle where it really is getting closer to anyone being able to be anyone, and it just makes future iterations uh quite exciting, and you can see why this really is the the holy grail, the crown jewel of Northern Hemisphere rugby, because it rightfully deserves to be top of the top of the table. Um so yeah, with that being said, Rory, Super Saturday being that little jewel that sits upon that crown, and uh I'm gonna sit here and say it delivered. Now we're gonna talk through the three games that took place chronologically, and I think no better place to start in that sense, because you know, it's chronologically at the Aviva Stadium with Ireland versus Scotland. Now, as you sat down with your friends to have a first couple of little uh little shandies, Rory, what were your thoughts on this game? So I'm guessing this is the game where your memories are best.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Uh yes, yes. Um they start to grey about sort of a quarter of the way through the Wales game, I would say. Um look, this this game this was this was a fascinating game in the build-up because there's there's two such competing narratives. Scotland, obviously, completely on the up after um demolishing France last week completely unexpectedly. Ireland deadly built throughout this tournament, and look, getting back towards their pre-Lions best. Um this game played out is probably it's probably the one that played out closest to what I would have expected. Yeah. But it did throw up some some outrageous moments, some outrageous um passages. Um I think Ireland, if you're being uncharitable, um you would probably say this was an Ireland um performance out of the Ireland playbook, right? They an Andy Farrell. Yeah, they put on the absolute, you know, the Gaelic clinic here. They um not Gaelic, Gaelic, Gaelics France. Um they strangled Scotland at times up front, moved the ball really well between between the forwards and the backs, lots of lovely hands, lots of lovely lines, maybe not still not that top-end power you get from someone like a France or a South Africa, but clever, clever play that constantly got them go forward ball when they had it on. Put the pressure on, kick to the corner, keep the pressure on, foot on the throat, find the find the edge, find the gap, find the soft shoulder, and score the try. You know, I think you saw that from the Osborne tri, the Sheehan try, um, the Balakoon tri. I mean, they all broadly played out of this narrative of Ireland forming in phase play the way that they are capable of doing, but we maybe haven't seen so much in the the earlier rounds of the tournament. We saw it more against England, um, we saw it a bit against Wales, but we really saw it this week. Where when Ireland get into that kind of flow state of how they play, it's very, very difficult to stop because there's so many competing threats at any one time. Um, Scotland, on the other hand, moments of real genius. I mean, the Darcy Graham try um after six minutes in reply to Osborne's opener was world world class. I mean, it's as good a try from a uh a blueprint of how you play test match rugby with the ball in hand, it's as good a try as you'll ever see. Um, just the way they kept it, they kept moving it, generated beat a ball when they needed to, and then eventually just found the edge and um uh put Darcy Graham over in a corner with really, really good hands from Kinghorn in particular under real pressure. Um but I think Scotland are gonna have to come away from this thinking kind of it's sort of the same old story, particularly against Ireland. Moments of brilliance, you know. I think all three of Scotland's tries were fantastic, you know. Russell's finish, um, you know, as Russell scores that when Russell scores tries, he tends to score that try. It just tends to be the way he scores.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

He only deals with magnificent.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, he just deals with he just deals with the ability to create uncertainty in the defensive line that that he can capitalise on. And he's you know it's always easy to forget because he's such a good ball player, because he's such a good kicker, it's sometimes easy to forget what a good player is ball in hand as well, running with it, and taking those opportunities, you know, that's not easy under that kind of pressure. So I think it was a three-on-three, I think, on the edge, and you know, in against that island team, you tend to back towards the defence, yeah. Yeah, you know, but Russell just makes it look easy. Um, Darges tries really good line to finish it off. Um again, it's just great phase play, but ultimately I think they're they're sort of the discipline didn't quite hit as well as they they coughed up penalties under pressure, they gave away field position, and against an island team that's that metronomic when they've got the ball in hand, it's just it's just bloody hard to spot um to stop. Um and then making mistakes, you know, uh when uh after Rory Dodge has tried about an hour in, and you think you know, it's I think at that point it was 21-26. Yeah you know, there's a real opportunity there, but then the pressure tells, they pull kick in, they give up the opportunity, you know. Tommy O'Brien's first try to I mean the hands, the hands crowley to Frawley to Tommy O'Brien. I mean, it is the ability to move the ball that well under pressure on the game line is it it's frightening at times when you know if if you're if you've ever been a defender in that situation and you you're just seeing the ball whip across you under that kind of um that kind of proximity, you just go, Oh, what am I supposed to do here? I'm as close as I can be. Yeah. Um but Ireland just ruthless in the end, absolutely ruthless, and and finished off their opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Yeah, to me, it it felt like Ireland had a kind of a bee in their bonnet because I think Scotland had almost adopted a very Irish style of play where they were getting success success in their previous rounds. So I thought Ireland maybe thought, hang on, we're the masters of this craft, and they really really put foot to the throat. Um like Scotland had been making every single breakdown an absolute nuisance, both sides of the ball this entire tournament. Whereas this game, Ireland Scotland only had one turnover the entire game. Like Ireland absolutely scalled them in that, and I think that I think that's why it it it almost is probably the only game of this round that went as I probably would have predicted at the start of this tournament because both teams kind of reverted to type after what has been quite a journey for East Tournament for both sides. So I think it's quite interesting how that's happened.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Absolutely, and you make a really good point at the breakdown because Scotland's work at the breakdown against England and France was central to how they demoned they demolished both those teams. Ireland are the masters of the breakdown. They that is one of the key tenants to how they've built this.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I'm pretty sure it's taught at every rugby college from the age of five, the the art of the breakdown uh double session between uh break time and lunchtime.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, because they they just have uh an inherent ability to secure their own ball and disrupt opposition ball. You know, if you look across their team, you've obviously got Van der Fleer, who's your you're out and adjacular, but Calen Doris, Tag Byrne, Jack Conan, Dan Sheehan, uh McCloskey and Ringlose, you know, all just dangers at the breakdown. Um and you know, it it in the end it put pay to Scotland, they just couldn't really cope with it when you know maybe they just ran out a bit of steam in the end with after what they've done against England and France.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Um, but they'll be they I mean they will come away gutted, rightly so. Um, you know, it a tournament that showed so much promise ending in third place again, you know, as a as a high watermark for the for the talent in that team, it's not really good enough. But you know, Ireland showed them once again, you know, this is how you win hence test matches, and it's yeah, you you absolutely secure your ball and you disrupt the opposition at every opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, I also think this is the tournament where Ireland have shown that they are able to adapt slightly, and I think the emergence of Crowley and McCloskey as their 10-12, I think is something that is a real big tick in the box for Farrell this tournament, because I think McCloskey has really grown into that 12 shirt enormously, and it's won hell of a big shirt for a hell of a big rugby player. And and Crowley has really put the island 10 shirt debate to bed for a while. I'd I'd be surprised if he was um unseated from that before the World Cup again because I think he's really shown it.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I think most yeah, I think he's I think he's absolutely secured it. Yeah, yeah. Um, and you know, they've brought they've got Osborne at 15, yeah, Balakun. Given that you know they're missing um uh Kean, obviously, they're missing Mac Hanson, James Lowe's been in and out of the team, but now you've got Balakun who looks absolutely superb. Stockdale's had really good moments in the tournament, Tommy O'Brien looked really good. Um, you know, you've got you we we really question this at the start of the tournament. Does do Ireland have the squad to maintain these levels? I don't know the the the art it's completely answered, but it's it's looking pretty close. You know, it it's at the moment it looks remarkably like Ireland might have a serious squad that they can take, you know. Again, there's still questions here. I know they've re-signed, I think Sheehan, Gibson Park, Aki, and James Lowe have all re-signed with the IRFU today, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Oh, okay. I haven't seen that one, but okay, that's big news.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Um, yeah, I think it was those four. Might not be James Lowe forget.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Um, but um that shows the four that are heading to R360.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, but it what it but it also, you know, those players are are still going to be another 18 months older by the time of the next tournament. So we'll see how that where their levels are at that point. I still think that is a question. I think it's a fair question for the Irish squad. It does does the age of profile.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I think the scrum off scrum off position for me is still a massive worry if I was an Ireland fan about what you do post-Gibson Park. Well, and what do you do if Gibson Park is crook?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Yeah, yeah. You know, that would worry me a bit. That would but that would be a worry, but take nothing away from them, you know. Oh, no, absolutely from from where they started this tournament to now, you know, they've they've proved their levels are you know, they've proved the class is permanent in this case. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Wales’ Best Performance Against Italy

SPEAKER_01 18:45

And I think also a nice little shout out, because at the start of this tournament we said the island scrum's gonna struggle. I think Tom O'Toole, who's a converted uh tight head coming over and covering the loose head, I think he's done a sterling job um operating on his less favoured side and uh what was perceived to be a big weakness uh didn't really turn out to be uh after the first week or so. I don't think most I don't think many teams really put them to the sword at the scrum time. So yeah, I think overall Ireland got a pretty solid grade out of this tournament. They were they were very close to well actually if we're gonna talk chronologically, this put Ireland in as strong a position as they possibly could be to have tried to wrestle back uh the Six Nations title and um really put the pressure on France. I wonder what happened in that final game. We'll get to that, listener, we'll get to that. I hope we're not going to spoil anything for you. I'd like to think there's no spoilers here. But I would hope not. Yeah, if if you don't know the results, this is not the podcast to listen to. But yeah, so yeah, ultimately, so Ireland they won 43-21, which I think flatters them a little bit, the score line, because I do think it was close to that generally. But I also think it reflects a quite dominant all-round performance from Ireland, and they they had the answers to Scotland's questions um kind of throughout the 80. Uh, and as you say, Scotland will just go back up to Glasgow and try and figure out how they can finish higher than third um with this golden generation. Um maybe they should be called the bronze generation, I don't know. Um let's move on, Rory. Let's move on to the next game in the a game that I tipped to be the game of the round last week. Um I'm not I'm not gonna sit here and say that is exactly how it panned out. Uh, but I know there's a certain portion of our listener base who is going to be very, very pleased with this uh this fixture. Wales versus Italy. Uh Wales' opportunity to grab a victory and show everyone the uh the fruits of their labour through this tournament and show that they've been improving. And uh I'm gonna sit here and say it, Rory. That was one hell of a performance from Wales. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

You know, we I think with the last couple of weeks we've talked about there being green shoots in the Wales performances and starting to see some um uptick in what we think the coaches were trying to do. Absolutely saw the fruits of the labour here. Um emotionally, physically, tactically, absolutely spot on uh throughout this game. Big players really standing up and and um taking ownership uh of a performance. Um, Aaron Wainwright, Dewey Lake, Totemic in the pack. Um three tries between the two of them. Um whole back row, really. Alex Mann chose both of them, just a nightmare for Italy all day. You know, the line out completely stabilised. They had a mall that was effective. Obviously, got two tries off the back of line out malls. You know, you think compared to the start of the tournament when they were getting absolutely torn apart up front, you know, they are now in a position where their pack is competitive, bordering on domino. You know, that is that is a huge shift. Um, in the back line, you know, Thomas Williams just making the game plan tick, moving the ball, keeping them moving, Dan Edwards coming of age. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Um, one of his best games, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah, one of his best games, showing why he's so highly rated, showing why he was um uh sought by several clubs when there was a wisp um whispers of uh him leaving Ospreys. You know, he's got you know he's got he's got all the lovely skills that you want from a fly half. He's also he's not a small lad. He's got enough pace that you saw on his trail, he's got enough pace to cause you problems, and then he's also got the bottle to slot over a drop goal on the angle of 45 metres. You know, that is that is the sign of a player who's got the swagger to be a test match fly half.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah. Um I do sense he's a confidence player though, so it's about what what happens when he's low on confidence, but ride it while high it's also the confidence that you get when you have a pat that is not getting battered backwards, you know, and they weren't.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

They were they were on the front foot I mean for at least the first 50 minutes of this game.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

They were absolutely on the front foot at all occasions. They you know Rhys Carey. I mean, the criminal nature that successive Wales coaches haven't seen a way to to get the best out of him. Um, he is he's physically frightening. Yeah, he's a big guy, you know, a guy that big, that mobile, you know, and there was always question marks about his scrummagings. Well, that's what a coaching team's meant to do. You're meant to help improve players, yeah. And you know, his scrummaging's fine now.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

I mean, I don't think he's gonna be ever gonna be the most destructive loose head, but he's I'd argue if a scrum coach couldn't get a half decent scrummager out of a six foot five, twenty-one stone loose head prop, they're probably not a good scrum coach. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

What what are you doing if you think you can't turn him into a scrummager? Yeah, yeah. I mean he's um but you know, in terms of his work rate around the pitch, you know, I mean he was so gassed by the time he came off, but he deserved um he deserved to be to look gassed because he absolutely flogged himself out there. Tackles, carries, just grunt work as well, just everywhere around the pitch. Um Derby Lake again runs himself into the ground. Just I mean, I I've been a fan of Derby Lake for a long time, but ever since he signed for Gloucester. Uh even before then, that's why I was so pleased. Um, but I think there are there have been question marks about about him at test match level. I think you may have questioned it actually at times as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I've I've never really been that enamoured by his performances, but uh I'd I'd certainly say he's he's he's certainly ended up higher up my my scale of liking a player than he started at this tournament, put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Well, I I think you know in in a lot of ways he's had the most impossible job as a as a captain over the last 12 months, you know. It was that that it was that is a an absolute hospital pass to take as a um to to be the the captain of your country, particularly when Jack Morgan's either unavailable or injured, you know, it's that is not a great position to be in. But he he is fronted up to the media every time. He's I don't think anyone can you can question a lot of the things he's done on the pitch. You can you know there have been obviously the missed tap against England, all that kind of stuff, but I don't think anyone can question the effort he's been putting in. He he he feels like the sort of personality that would make players want to play for him, and that's the kind of bloke that a team like this really needed, and I think you're now seeing everyone kind of rising up to that level with him, you know, and you throw in Jack Morgan back into this team, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yeah, you know, just feels harsh on James Botham.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

It does, it does feel harsh on James Botham, you know, and it's Jack Morgan's not necessarily immediately back into this team, you know. If he gets back to his levels, he sort of is, yeah, but but you know, it's not like it's not like if Jack Morgan was sort of on 60% fitness, they'd throw him in because they were so desperate. You know, they've got they've got genuine back row options now, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I thought it was excellent from Wales from start to finish. I was I I it looked it looked ominous early doors, um, you know, and I think when Wayne Wright finishes off that first try, I probably thought Italy haven't turned up here and Wales look desperate for it, which was I think is exactly where they needed to be at.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, um there is a crash mark around the Italy, certainly at the start, like a number of missed tackles and things like that. It's just it's unlike we'd seen all torn up from Italy. You do wonder whether they were as up for it as they would have was the previous four rounds.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

But I think I think that's the the long and short of it is Italy didn't turn up in this game for at least for the first 50 minutes, and even then they weren't that good for the last half an hour, they were just marginally more on top. Um, players, you know, players that up to this point have been superb in every round. But your Fischetti's, your Nicateras, your Canonis, Zuliani, even Lamarot, none of none of them really looked like they were the pack did not look like they were anywhere near as up for it as they were the other games at all. And you know, it's you know, we say Italy have got a history of not backing up victories. Now they obviously have backed up a victory in this tournament, but you know, a ruthless tier one nation, even if Wales are absolutely bang up for it, goes to the goes to the principality and wins this game. Because you know, Italy still had more than enough quality in that team on paper to do that, but they just emotionally were not right for this one, um, and that's that's something that they're gonna have to reckon with. Um yeah, very few good performances on their side.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Um I mean I I think for for me their game turned around when they swapped Scrum after Varney. Um I don't think um starting nine whose name escapes me right now, Fisco. I don't think he had a very good game at all. Um Varney came on and he he kind of upped the tempo, his distribution was a bit better, the kicking was better. I think I think that was a bit of a turning point for Italy, but obviously Manancello was excellent, but he's he's always excellent.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah, I mean Brexancello were still good, both of them were, but you they can't rely on them to get them out of out of trouble in these kind of games. You need the pack to turn up, and they didn't on this occasion.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

And I'm pretty sure Italy haven't been niled this entire tournament for a half, and they went in at halftime 21 nil down. And so that's a hard it doesn't happen very often that you come back from that sort of uh kind of score line. So they they had an uphill battle that they weren't able to conquer.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

And it was one of those days where you know I I think Wales set the tone early. The the the the intensity in their tackling was a level that we haven't really seen up to this point. Intensity in their carries that we haven't seen before, but we also yeah, things like there's a moment when the ball was throwed out the bat in Wales's 22, and it put on real pressure, and it breaks to Rhys Samet, who puts a phenomenal kick basically dead up the tram lines, chases it down, snags the player, and they force a turnover and win the penalty. And though it's it's a small passion to play in the grand scheme of the game, but it was really indicative of the intensity of the chase from Rich Samut, but also the rest of the Wales team, was really indicative of where they were at in this match, and the fact that Italy hadn't got back at the same pace to support them was really indicative of where they were at. Yeah, and I suspect, well, possibly a case of celebrating beating Inglaterra a little too um enthusiastically, you know, to an extent you can understand it, but you've got an opportunity to have your best tournament in history, you know. They you know you could conceivably break the top three, yeah, or you know, it ruthless teams take those opportunities, and at the moment the Italian team may be just lacking that little bit more. Um they're capable of it, but we've seen that yeah, but consistently maybe not.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah, maybe that maybe the consistency is the the big question mark now about kind of being able to back up results week in, week out. Yeah, uh that that is the next step for them. It's where it's less of a talking point about the fact they're getting wins, it becomes more of a talking point about how many wins they're getting in a row, or kind of putting teams like Wales to the sword, whether it's home or away. But hey, I I I still think Italy's tournament as a whole has been a positive one. They're still trending in the right direction, completely over the long term. They're 100% trending in the right direction, and another nation that's trending in the right direction has to be Wales, because from where they've started this tournament with that game against England, which was let's face it, a bit of a car crash. This I I think the writings have been a little bit on the wall because I think their their performances kind of each round have been getting better and better.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yep, yeah, they have.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Yeah, I I think this showed something that I think Wales fans needed in 2026. Um, because they've they've they've they've been battered for the last 12 months.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Well, yeah, and and the atmosphere in the ground seemed brilliant. Um, I used to speak to me, brother, I haven't seen him, he actually went. Um he's asking about what it felt like. But on the telly it looked phenomenal um in the in the ground, and I think you know, Wales fans haven't asked for a huge amount actually in this period, they're not asking for grand slams.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Oh, they they are being they're just asking for performances, very reasonable fan base, you must say.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, yeah. Then you know it they're realistic about where they're where they're at at the moment, but they're asking for performance and for a team that puts in the same emotional heft to a game that they as fans feel for it, and in this game they got it. And you know, I I look across that Wales team and I still maintain there's real quality across it, but it's it's taken time for the coaching team, I think, to imprint the confidence in them as much as anything, as much as it is tactical or chick or whatever it is, I it just felt like a confidence and maybe connecting with them in a way that gets them um firing on game day, and yeah, they now I think Steve Tandy's now put himself in a position where he can say he knows the players that are gonna turn up um on a of a test test match, and that's important that's so important from his point of view because I don't think it was obvious at all at the start of the tournament what their first 15, let alone their 23, would look like. Yeah, it's now it's now really close, and he's got now got an opportunity to build on that. Um you know, you just hope the the politics don't get in the way of the team performing, but that's that's always going to be the concern with Wales at the moment. Um sounds like they're still fortune ahead with the current plan, so you know, it'd be interesting to see how that kind of all lands in the end. But um, I'm I'm just I'm actually chuffed for them because I think I think they've needed it, you know. I think and I think the tournament needed it because actually having Wales be consistently cut adrift was wasn't good for the tournament. It's not a good look for the tournament to have a team cut adrift in the same way that it wasn't when it was Italy. Yeah, you need all the all the teams to be competitive with each other to set to one extent or another. Um and actually it it's another wooden spoon, but it's it's enough green shoots that I think the Welsh fans can be really optimistic about the direction that Steve Tandy's taking the team in. Forget the rest of it, but what Steve Tandy's doing and his team are doing with this group of players. I can I think there's a genuine cause for optimism about what they might be able to do together.

France v England Classic In Paris

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah, so it's like a really nice wooden spoon that's like come as part of a really nice baking set, and they're just waiting for to be see what the product is at the end of this bake. So don't worry, Wales fans. A wooden spoon is integral to what the end result's gonna look like. Um, and I will say, because I've been watching the under-twenties obviously uh this year. The Wales under 20s. I know we've we've had question marks about some of like their the gaps in their team. They've certainly got some players coming through who I think could be the answer to where those gaps are at the moment. So future's not looking quite so shabby for Wales now. Uh, and as you say, with Tandy, I feel like he's got that emotional dial tuned in to the perfect spot for that Wales team, and I think we're seeing that um being reflected in performances. Uh so yeah, Wales came away with the win 31-17, kind of dampening the Italian optimistic end to a tournament that could have been, but certainly yeah, a reality check, reality check for the Italians who will look back at this as maybe a missed opportunity, but also have to put into hindsight how good of a tournament this has been to Italy, considering the number of players that they've had out and kind of them blooding s some of their own new players, like some real it's this tournament's been a real positive news story for them as well, and Wales being able to have that not quite fairy tale ending, but ending on a high, which is probably what they deserved after their building through this tournament. Now, Rory. Chronologically, pressure put on England, I I think to avoid the wooden spoon. They had to avoid losing by eighty-six points or more, and let's face it, going into this game couldn't rule it out based on previous form. France had it all to play for, they needed to get a win in order to secure the six nations. Uh, anything less than a win would not have been good enough. And the Star de France certainly put on a show. The atmosphere, the ambiance, uh the build-up, it was spot on for what was one of if not well, it was certainly the best game of the tournament. Uh and one of the one of the better games of rugby I've watched in quite a while, Rory. Uh, again, kind of taking taking my uh allegiance out of it. One hell of a game of rugby. Yeah, c'est magnifique.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Um it it required an answer from England, a big answer, um, after the last few weeks. I mean, and do you know what? I actually don't care about the final result. I mean, I I wanted us to win this game. Obviously, I'm gutted that that Ramos um got that kick at the end to win it. Um, you know, and there's there's things to pick apart, and there's still massive improvements, and there's still problems. Um, but it's the most points England have ever scored in France. It's it's frustrating that it's taken to now for this to happen.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

And we that's something I think we need to we we need to discuss when we're kind of reviewing England overall. But just taking this game in isolation, it was so good to see the things that look you and I have have been dissecting these poor England performances over the last three weeks, and there are some themes that we really keep coming back to. It's intensity of carries into into contact, particularly from the forwards, it's the ability to put on footwork, it's the ability to move the ball at the line, change the point of contact, it's players running with intent to find space and moving the ball rather than rather than going straight to the kick. If you're kicking, kicking with purpose, kicking with a direction, kicking with an end goal in mind. Um, and England in this game answered the question as to whether they were capable of doing those bits that make good test teams great test teams. And you know, we're all we've seen now is is the possibility that England can do it, and the possibilities that England can do it against one of the strongest Test nations in the world. But it it was so important to see that in this match for for the fans to get a glimmer of optimism going ahead to um what is an interesting summer program with the with the first iteration of the nations championship. Obviously, the next match England will play is away at South Africa. Yeah. Now there's going into away at South Africa having lost four games on the bounce, and there's going away South Africa having lost four games on the bounce. This is an occasion where it's okay, we've lost four games on the bounce, but we might be able to actually do something with this. There might be there, might there might be some optimism here. Um, the signs were really good early on. Uh so Atkinson had uh try and chalked off um in the first minute or so after uh offered they did grub a kick that was really really good. Obviously, there was a knock-on, it didn't quite work out, but the signs were really good. Finn Smith was uh running with the ball straight away. That was that was really noticeable from the first time we got their hands on it. It wasn't that Finn Smith was immediately looking for the space to kick, he was running with the ball, looking for the space to run into. Yeah, that was so um uh different to what we've seen all tournament, yeah. So different from what we've seen all tournament, and um I think again, really important for Finn Smith to bring that to this game because I think that was not a question mark on his ability to do that because we've seen him do it for Saints, but can he do it at this level in in these kind of situations? He needed to show that he had an all-court game, and he's show I think he's shown that in this one. Yeah, um, now obviously it doesn't go to plan the whole game at all. So it starts off um for for whatever reason, despite the fact picking three second rows, England don't pressure most France line runs. I just find strange, I just find a strange decision. Now it's yeah, I might be I might be completely off the mark, and maybe the French line out is so intricate and difficult to decipher that even Alex Coles and Oli Chesham, two of the best line out operators in the Prem, couldn't find a way to get anyone up off the ground to pressure it, but they don't. Um, and that leads to the Louis Bureau's um first try after six minutes, I think it is. Um, which if I was I'm not gonna criticise any England players too much on this game in terms of things that haven't happened. I would say Caden Murley had some moments that were very reminiscent of his game against Ireland last year. Um, you know, in this one where he fluffs the opportunity to either grab the ball or just hit BRB RA, he gets it wrong, and Le Beep Beep runs it in. Um, but to the credit, England comes straight back to it. The forwards are running hard, knocking the French defence backwards, which it's a big French pack, and England were running with real intensity. Um, and they get really good phase play. You know, Itoje was carrying the ball better than I've seen him carry it in years. It's like a different different player, different man. Um, Oli Chesham and Ellis Genj throughout the whole game, just so prominent with the ball in hand. Ellis Genj in particular looked like I I don't know, someone had chucked wasps down his underwear before he went out there. I don't know, I don't know what was going on with it.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

He looked like he'd been listening to our podcast all tournament and he's had enough.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I it felt like an Ellis Genge, I'm answering some fucking critics kind of performance. Yeah. And he did, I think, for my money. Um, so the f I mean the first try from Robux Great, so it's great phase play. Um, and and they it went back and forth like that all game, right? You know, there's but it it's sort of it's good moments like that, but then Ellis Genge knocks it on from the kickoff and from the first phase off scrum. Another kick behind um goes behind Roebuck, who and and Daily Roebuck shoots up, they kick behind him, Daly's had to follow Roebuck to try and fix a dog leg, big space in behind, they gather the ball with beep beep scores again. Yeah, and that whatever's happening on the edge, and uh, I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I'm an expert in edge defence. No, it's not where I know if I'm on the edge in the in the defensive line, I'm well aware that we're in trouble, you know. Um, but it was it was really obvious, and I th I wonder if it's just from not having a settled back three, three months coming in now, not having a consistent fullback, you know, not having a consistent two wingers. I think I think in the summer they need to settle on a back three and assuming they can all stay fit, I think stick with them.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

That's been the problem, is it's the it's fitness. I don't it it's not that they don't want to settle on a back three, it's just players keep getting blimmin' injured, Rory, or which is kind of stop being injured in Furbanks in case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah. I mean it's it it's unfortunate, but they're they they're gonna have to find a way to get three robust players in the back three that they can play week in week out because it's it's such an obvious problem. I mean, um there was another obviously Murley scores a good trial, so more good phase play. Sebak is a moving ball to Freeman who carries it well, and then Ben Spencer grubbers, as Subby misses the ball and Murley gets dots it down. Great big tick, big tick for Murley. The next thing Merley does is um uh Ramos kicks a ball over the top, it bounces back, and Sony is so is so close to being a Jana Bear try out of nothing because he just doesn't crack the ball. Again, I feel back as I really like Caden Murlin, I really want him to succeed in an England shirt because I think he's absolutely carrying the Queens team at the moment. I think he cares massively. I think physically he's got all the attributes, and I think when he's playing, I mean I watched him for the A team, he was the standout player on the pitch. I think last week he was probably England's standout player, um along with Benel.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

I do because I do I think he does offer something different to all the other wingers England have in the squad at the moment. He he's he's a bit more physical than your Arundales, um your Radwads, or whoever else is kind of in that kind of small but explosive mold. But he's probably a bit more agile than your Robux, yeah. Freeman's, yeah, yeah, yeah, big stocky winger. So he does offer something different.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

But he's also he's making mistakes that cost tries, and he did last year. And that's ultimately it's like, well, can he cut those mistakes out? Can we afford to give him the time to do it? Because in this game, he nearly cost two, he did cost one, he nearly cost two tries. Um, and again, it's it's a shame because he's as you say, physically, he's a really interesting profile player to have in there as a he's different to Feo Bosa, he's different to Freeman, he's different to Roebuck. You know, it it's a good and it and he is he's a leader at club level, he's got a 360 game, you know. He can kick, he can run, he can tackle, he can juke. You know, it's it's all in there. He's just got this error proneness to him, but he's error prone, and that's a problem. Um, but I mean so many fascinating performances are better. The line out, obviously, hugely better. I think that the I think the three sevens in the back row has got to be, and now I think you need to have three proper line out jumpers there. Um that's got that's that's that that was just such an obvious fix. The mall was better just with having bigger players in the Chessham at six was uh yeah, it it's Chess him. What a performance. Well, I mean I thought it was really good. I thought Tojo was world class. Only Chesham was on a different planet. I mean, don't be right. The intercept is obviously the massive thing. I mean, to run it to run it in from 45 metres out as a effectively a lock. Let's be let's be realistic about it. He's got six on his back, but he's a lock. Yeah, he's an athletic lock, but he's a lock.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

This is why I'm not buying. Like you hear all these people saying, Oh, why didn't he run it under the post? He was in his head, he's getting chased by La Beep Beep, Jalaber, Atisogbe, Ramos. He is getting to the line as best he can.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

It doesn't matter where he's and also let's let's be let's be frank about this. For all Finn Smith was was very good in this game. For for what's meant to be a test match level kicker, that's not the hardest kick in the world to nail, and he wasn't the only one he missed.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

He's I'm a devout Saint fan. I am not going to sit here and pretend he's having a good season off the T. He is not having a good season, he's not in the top 10 in the Prem for kick accuracy. Which is weird because he was he he is a good kicker. I don't know what's going on. Well, whatever Johnny Sexton was teaching him on the Lions tour, he just needs to forget it. Uh because ever since he's come back, his kicking percentage has gone backwards. Like he was he was a high 80% kicker last season. He's like mid-60s this season, which is worrying, but I know that he's better than that. And I I think maybe it's just got in his head, it's just become a problem. But I'm also I'm not gonna sit here and say it's all Finn Smith's fault we lost this game because he wasn't missed kicks, because no fly half's missed kicks, unless it's Thomas Ramas.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

They do, they do, and you know, I think if we're being realistic, um we have to blame Pollock. Nope, no, no, no, not buying it. You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Uh David Morgan Jones of the R Mob Pod specifically blames Henry Pollock for England's loss against France.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

I haven't said that at all.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Uh I've been to the fakes, people.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

The the second Henry Pollock celebrated that try, I thought, uh oh. That's that feels like something that might come back to bite us. Um but I'm not buying that he threw it away because one, maybe Jack Van Porkfeet shouldn't have kicked away on the 78th minute. Two, Henry Pollock stole the ball, so at least he was doing something to try and win the game.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

And then yeah, he then threw it away, though, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 47:21

But Murley didn't need to try and kick it, he could have picked it up or put a better effort at what was going on in that. Like you can't put that all on Pollock, and then everything that happened after that, um, that's not Pollock's fault either. So let's not put it all on the young man. Uh, at least he stole the ball. He was just being Pollock and thought maybe it's a naive moment, though.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

It's a naive moment that again it kind of falls into the camp of things England have got to improve drastically, they've got to make less naive decisions. You know, it's um I I kick going back to Murley, it's him making the tackle in the air. Yeah that leads to uh the leads to the mall try. I'll try to remember where I put it up. Yeah, it's it's right before kickoff, isn't it? So they uh they kick the ball in the air, he gives away the penalty, they they kick to the corner, they put pressure on, get another penalty, kick to the other corner, more comes on, Genj is uh deemed to have collapsed the mall and is the colour. Your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Your thoughts on that. I I've seen some claiming it shouldn't have been given as a penalty try.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

I don't think it should have been because he's spun he spun the front man. So that the mall spun round, he's hit it, and he's spun it round and he's dragged it out. I think Aldegeri goes to ground. Um I don't think it's I don't think it's a collapsed mall on penalty try. I think it's really good mall defence. Um yeah, I I don't I think that was the wrong call. Uh look, it's a it's a close one. It's 50%. Like if I was a if I was sat here in a France shirt, I would be um wait. Oh, wait, I am in my France shirt that I am sat here in, I'm saying it's a penalty trying a yellow card. Were I wearing my England shirt, it's really good mall defence and it's really harsh. It's a it's a bit of a judgment call on the referee. Um, you probably most of the time that does go towards the attacking team, but yeah, I'm not convinced that's exactly what the call should have been. But it it comes from naive decision making, you know, it comes from being in that position in the first place. You know, we all we've got to do is see out the half. All Merley has to do is track the ball, track the track the jumper, knock him for six, and you're you're defending on the halfway line. Instead, you give away the penalty, you give away fill position, you give away pressure, and eventually you give away a try and a yellow card, and then the yellow card, if you include the penalty try, is a 21-point swing. Yeah, that was a moment, yeah. It's a huge, it's just a huge swing under pressure. Um, and don't be wrong, you know, the the the hands for beat Le Beat Beeps tried just after half time, particularly from Miafu, the handling from them is out of this world. But England just seemed to France are really good against 14 men. Yeah. England are really bad with 14 men. They're considered something like 60, 70 points with 14 men in this tournament, and they've been down to 14 men a lot or 13. Yeah, yeah. Um, for whatever it is, they just seem to lose the ability to slow France's momentum, which is hard. I I guarantee I grant you it's hard. And Atogio did manage a really good steal in that sequence. But the momentum swing was so quick when they're down to 14. That yes, France are really good and they were playing amazing, and it did feel like a runaway freight train, but there's got to be something in that England team that allows them to arrest that momentum, they've got to find a way to do it, or they've got to stop giving away yellow cards. One of the two, yeah, ideally both, actually.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Really, I don't yeah, I don't know why it is that way because if it feels like we're always one player short in the defensive line, and we're more often than not, it's a forward. In this case, again, she's got like I'm not sure we should be feeling that gap in the defensive line. No, I should.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

So I don't think it should have been such immediate panic, but it is for whatever reason it.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah, yeah. Um it's a mentality thing, I think. I think maybe there's torment we've because we've spent so much time a man down and it's not gone particularly well, it goes panic station straight away. Yeah, but credit where credit's due, England drag themselves back into the game after this 21-point swing.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Yeah, of course. Yeah, so I mean, there's more great French attack, they get the penalty under the sticks, DuPont taps and just passes immediately at Zugby in space on the wing. Yeah, again, where's the left winger? It's Murley, it's not there, fine. Okay. Um it doesn't feel like I'm picking on it, I just does.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

It does feel like you pick it on Burley. I thought, but you know, other than all the other things you said, I thought you had an okay game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

It's just all the things you did wrong that are the problem. But all the other things were great. Yeah, um, but then Chesham gets the intercept right before they're back up to 15 men, and that feels like an important moment. Um's it's like an ankle injury, comes off, Pollock comes on, Marcus Smith's on at this point. They go 19 phases. I don't think they've gone that many phases in the whole tournament up to this point. No, I don't think they have. And Marcus Smith finishes off with really lovely goosey into the corner, which is what Marcus Smith does when he's got sp time and space.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Um, but then I mean they're a bit unlucky with the next one because the referee changes his call from a penalty to a knock-on. So when England overplay it and kick it, advantage, and so then they kick the ball, advantage over. DuPont then hoofs it 80 yards, and Le Beat Beep just outsprints everyone, Merley. And um and uh oh Merley, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Uh to be fair, it was an unfair matchup against Le Beat Beep on the day.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

No, no one's catching, it's fine, but it's just what it is, what it is. But um, it's it's it's unfortunate and it's a bit unfair of the ref to call advantage over at that moment when England think they're under penalty advantage. But again, everything goes your way. Refs gonna ref. Refs are gonna ref. Um, but then you know, England put more pressure on, they force a yellow card from Denver Bamber, um, and they put more phase play together and put Freeman over. Okay, so there's flashes of really, really, really good stuff from England, and then the naive stuff, you know, it obviously ends with a big naive moment. Obviously, Pollock doesn't secure the ball. You know, I'm not gonna put the whole loss download.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

He secures the ball and then gives it away.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah, but the key point, the key point of this is he gives it away. A non-naive team, he carries it up, he doesn't try and offload it. I mean, say okay, Merley maybe he shouldn't have dived on it, but I don't think Merley's expected to pass then because he shouldn't pass at that moment.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

And let's face it, the way Merley's gone this game. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

It's not the main pass it to but Pollock should be taking it into contact on the ball, you've got to go one, maybe two more phases, and you've won the game. They don't do that, they lose the ball. There's then I think Trevor Davidson and Toge both give away high tackles. Yeah. Um, and Ramos, I mean, he kicked so well, you'd let him kick your dog to death because you think it'd just be just perfect at it.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

The second of the penalty it's comforting for me because the second the penalty was gone, I knew it was going over, so I had time to come to terms with it. Like it I wasn't agonizing because Ramos was going to get that kick 99 times out of 100. There was no agonising for me because it was uh as as sure as a sure thing could be. Um it's just I I think you're right. Credit where's credit's due at the start of this game. If you had offered me a two-point nail biter 94-point thriller, I'm I was taking it every day of the week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Yeah. I look at at the start of this, at the start of the day on Super Saturday, I was going into it thinking I'm gonna enjoy the Isle of Scotland game, I'm I might enjoy the Wales Italy game, depending on which way it goes, and I'll just be so pissed by the time the game starts that it won't I won't care so much that we're getting battered. Yeah, and in the end, you know, it it was it was fantastic, and you've that they've they've asked as many questions as they answered with this performance, you know. They've the well, there's still a lot of questions as to what's going on it, and I think we should get into that a little bit in terms of a review. But the game in and of itself, I was delighted by the intent how they played for passage of it. I mean, I thought they were really, really good across the park. I include Merley in that. But I thought that back line across across the park at times looked excellent. I thought they all really contributed to this. I thought Seb Atkinson looked much more assured at 12. I thought he dovetailed really well with Tommy Freeman. I thought Ben Spencer got the absolute balance right of when to control and when to go. I thought Finn Smith looked a lot freer with the ball in hand. Um, I do think Merley and Roebuck were really threatening on the wing. Um, I thought Daly looked good, generally pretty good under the high ball. I thought he generally made good decisions when he kicked, he kicked well. Um yeah, that left boot's still still a weapon, isn't it? That he's got. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think the pack as a collective did all the things we've been asking of them for the last three weeks. Yeah, so from that point of view, I'm happy. Yeah, I'm not happy that they lost, but you have to tip your hat to a France display that was as thrilling, you know. Jaleb getting that break at the end to get the momentum on, you know, Le Beat be just constantly just a threat and just always just constantly looking to finish it off. Yeah, Ramos with the boot that just secures the game at at the death, and then just the handling in the pack, you know, Miafu was sensational. Sensational in this game.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

I don't know what I don't know why every kick off every kickoff they're kicked as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

What are you doing? A man of that size to have that kind of dexterity is disgusting. I mean, you know, why didn't I get that? Um yeah, Olive on everywhere, as per Guillard when he came on, was everywhere. You know, at the end of the day, you've got to say, look, France probably overall shaded it. Yeah, and a they're probably the best uh team in the Six Nations at the moment. They I think they probably deserve that deserve the winners ever.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yeah, worthy winners of the tournament for sure.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah, but England turned up and um close after the last few weeks. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

Yeah, the only thing for England now is that has to be their benchmark, that has to be the level. And I don't know how many times we've said this. Let's not revert back to what we saw for the last three rounds. Because I just because it it was more this was more England versus Argentina in the summer. This was more England in the autumn before. Like this is what we'd kind of grown accustomed to. So I don't know really what's happened in that three, four-week period. Let's put it behind us and let's focus going forward. So, as you said, Rory, full credit to France, uh, worthy winners of the game and the tournament in general. Uh just ultimately probably been the most fun team to watch generally. Um and yeah, that game ended 48-46, which fantastic, fantastic game for the viewer. But we sit here as two not as demoralised as we could have been England fans.

England’s Fixes Before South Africa

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Where do where do where does England go now? We know Borthwick is staying there till the World Cup, so we're not even going to talk about does Borthwick leave or go? Because I that to me feels like a mooch debate. I just don't see that happening now. What needs to happen going forward for the England camp to get England fans like us back on the bandwagon?

SPEAKER_00 58:25

I'm of after this week, I am more of the opinion that a lot of what's let England down over the last few weeks has come from the players more so than the coaches. And what I mean by that is if we take take the last game, um, there was a really this really indicative moment where there's three on one on the outside, Seb Atkinson's got the ball, and rather than passing to the three men into space who've got a clean break and opportunity to isolate Lewis Liner and score, he kicks it. There's not a coach in the world who tells you to do that. No one is Steve Borthwick's not telling you to do that, no one is. That is a playing group that was uh afraid to play, afraid to take opportunities, and afraid to um play what's in front of them. So, from my point of view, the players have now proven from this performance that they are perfectly capable of that level of um attacking verve. You know, they they they know how to spot space, they know how to create quick ball, they know how to secure breakdowns, they know how to get physically on top of a big pack and be dominant and keep your foot on the throat and take opportunities. So the players have got to own that forwards. They can't you can't come to the summer and the players all of a sudden forget how to execute a two-on-one, a three-on-one, wherever it ends up being. That can no lock that's no longer an acceptable excuse. I mean, never was, but it's you can't you just can't accept that. From a coaching perspective, I don't think any changes should be made. I think part of the problem is they keep making bloody changes. Yeah I think keep the coaches as it is now. You know, there's a there's question marks of are people in the right jobs, are there too many coaches, is there enough space for certain coaches to speak? That is for Steve Borthwick to to handle, and he needs to needs to make sure he's handling that. He needs to make sure that Lee Blackett is a prominent voice in in the coaching group and is allowed to imprint an attacking um game plan that the players can execute. So that is that is on that is on the England setup now. Whatever they comes out of this review, they're doing the players cannot walk away from this going, well, that was good, and then not think about it again. They've they've set they've set a level now of attacking play that they can achieve. Yeah, they've got to fix loads of other things. There's like they've got to fix the edge defence, they've got to fix the defence in general, they've got to fix discipline, they've got to improve at the breakdown in general. Um, it was better this week, but they've got they've just got to keep improving at the breakdown. They've got to recognise that the game has shifted, and one of the things that the Blitz defence has really um offered as what has been offered as a solution to the Blitz defence, I should say, is the ability, is the necessity to have a second playmaker who can put the ball beyond the last man. Realistically, unfortunately, Freddie Stewart's not that guy. Um so that I think they're gonna have to move on from that and make a decision as to who's your playmaker at 15. For me, it's Furbank, it could be Daly, it could be Marcus Smith, but that's that's the reality. If you're gonna beat defences, you need to have that ability to play the ball from the back as well as through the 10 and through the 12. You need a 10 who can play, you need a 12 who can play, you need a 15 who can play. Finn Smith, Seb Atkinson, George Furbank, I don't know, Finn Smith, Max Jomo, George Furbank, you know the debate will go on on that one. But for me, that is that's the reality of it. But you know, if you're gonna if this team's gonna get to the levels that it wants to and it's gonna compete at the next World Cup, I think they've shown this week that they're capable of that. It's in them they are gonna have to this summer prove prove that on it maybe the toughest, toughest environment of all, which is a way in South Africa. They're but they're gonna have to prove that they can maintain that level week in, week out, because that's what South Africa do, that's what France do, it's what the best Kiwi teams did, it's what the best Ireland teams do. That's that's the level they're gonna have to maintain now, and whatever they have to do emotionally to get to that level, that's what they need to work out what that formula looks like. And I think look, there's there's issues on the play uh on the coaches, and they they need to answer some questions here, but I think a lot of that's gonna fall down to the players now that they need to um take some ownership of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Team Of The Tournament Debates

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

I think yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. It it does definitely feel like a player it it requires the players to turn up and play without fear and remember what it is to play for that shirt and all those cliches that we hear about. Um but it's true because I think if if you don't get that emotional level right, you're gonna turn up and you're you're gonna either play with fear because it it's the moment's too much, you're emotionally scared to lose something that you've got, or you turn up and you're not tired, you're not you're not hyped up enough and you're gonna lose the physical battle. Like it's it's it's a tricky balance to get right. That's why the coaches are paid the big bucks, because they need to get that right. And maybe in this France game we sh we've seen what that England team can do when that emotional dial is tuned to the right level. And I liked what I saw, and I agree. This is this is it it does it has to be the benchmark uh up against South Africa, because if we can run France this close in Paris, there's no reason why we can't go to South Africa and really put on as good of a performance as we can and not like uh it the minimum for me has to be we have to run South Africa close. And we can't just let them run away with a game because I think that would be a step backwards. Um and I do think we've got the players, and I do think we've got the coaches. We just need to get that combination right. So yeah, it it's it's an interesting one. It it's almost maybe it's a good thing that the next game is probably the hardest possible game in World Rugby because there's no hiding now. We we can't we can't say anything other than like if if you can't get that team up for this game, I d I don't know what the answer is because if if you can't get a team up for South Africa away in the first round of a whole new competition, well we can kiss 2027 World Cup goodbye. Um that's for sure. But hey, we're England fans, we're a positive pod, we're optimistic, and you know, I hope England do have the answers. But for this podcast, Rory, we'll bring that conversation to a close. We're gonna do a quick handsuit. So I've written down my team of the tournament. I'll run you through my team of the tournament, and I will allow you to critique it as much as you like and provide with me with alternatives that I will more than likely accept, but some I may say no to. And then once we've done that, we'll do a bit of our bread and butter. We'll do a little run through the predictions for the Prem that comes back this weekend. The rug becomes thick and fast. Oh, I can't wait for the prem to come back. But my team of the tournament Rory. In the one shirt, Reese Correy, in a hooker, do we link at three, tight head, Simone Ferrari, four, Canone, five, I've gone Olivon, six, Tag Burn. I know this is a little bit of positional jiggery pokery, but I think Tag Burns of he fits there. Seven, Rory Darge, eight, Ben Earl, nine, Jamison Gibson Park, ten, Matthew Jalibert, eleven, La Beep Beep, twelve, McLosky, thirteen, Minon Giello, fourteen, Kyle Stein, and fifteen Tomas Ramos, your heart throb. Critique away, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Um so back line-wise, I think I'm pretty much in agreement. I don't think I've got any questions um or any uh issues with that at all. Um yeah, I I I think you've I think you've now now the backman actually. Um I would I think honourable mentions as a Sog Bay, probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Um I think um Balakun. Balakoon was nearly in there. I nearly put Tupilotu in as well. And obviously it was DuPont and Gibson Park way up, and I just think Gibson Park had a much more influential tournament um compared to DuPont this this time round, which may be controversial to some, but I th I think I think DuPont was um overshadowed by Jalabert this tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Um yeah, that's fair enough. Uh up front, I like it a lot. I would probably make the case for Nicotera over Derry Derwy Lake.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Um, but that's a close one. I like that Derry Lake's there, so I'm not gonna argue with it too much. Summer Ferrari correct, Reese Carey correct. Uh Canone Olivon. Uh I like that you've put Olive on in the second row, that is where he's been the most of the tournaments. That's probably about right. Uh I can't think that there's might be. I nearly went Guillard. Yeah, Guillard, Guillard would be in the conversation we have at Canoni, possibly. But no, I'm probably just about in agreement with that. I think. Um, I think that's probably about right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Back row wise, I think Irish listeners will be probably I couldn't squeeze Byrne, Doris, Earl, and Darjin together. That was the problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

No, I think I think Irish listeners would say Doris over Earl just for overall contribution to a winning team, which I get, either I I think Earl has been an absolute standout for England and probably has I mean, stat-wise, he's probably ahead of everyone. So I think you're probably just about okay there, but I would just caution you that some Irish listeners might not be um overly pleased there. That's fine. Um Darge probably just shades out of a Zuliani, but I think Zuliani was really, really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

Yeah, Zuliani's close, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Um Alex Mann again, I think at six, he's got a good shout, but you're probably right to to put Byrne in there. Yeah, Jack Dempsey Scotland was very good. He was close, he was close. Um Cross for France did a lot of good unseen stuff that they needed to get the rest of the team going.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

I think if Jelaunch wasn't injured for the last game, he could have been in there as well, but he kind of maybe forgotten about.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:37

Yeah, Lamaro.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

Yeah, a lot of good, a lot of good back rows this tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

A lot of good a lot of good options, but I think on balance, I'm going to I'm going to agree with your team. Yes. Uh maybe splitting hairs on a few, but actually I'm I'm I'm pretty happy with that. And a Gloucester player made the hooker, so I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Future Gloucester player. There's there's still time for Gloucester to do something to his career. No, actually, I've I've at Manmy Fett I've been very positive with my with Gloucester fans who attend because uh you've done probably one of the smartest bits of recruitment ever that that club could do in bringing in Chris Boyd. Um, because I've seen what he'd done to Northampton and I think he could do the same for Gloucester.

Premiership Predictions After The Break

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

So we're in a totally different realm now, but just as I actually brought it up. When I was thinking about that, well, if you were Gloucester, who who is it possible to model off? You think, well, difficult to model off Saracens or Quinns, you just don't have you're not in London, so no we can't really model off Leicester, too, too big a town, too much um depth of of support there in terms of just the size of the players. Northampton's probably the closest one in terms of size of town, size of available fan base. You know, there's there's obviously differences in terms of you know, there's a good piece in the in the BBC about uh Northampton school boys. Yeah, um yeah, I read that. But um, you know, Gloucester have got a lot of really good rubber playing schools as well. So I think I think as a model, probably about the right decision to make. We'll see how it turns out. But I'm hoping Givens gives more time on the training paddock and letting other people. Um it's Chris uh it's Chris Boyd and uh the lad that the bloke they brought in from Bath, who was a Gloucester before his name's just escaped me. He's coming in as basic general manager. Yes, I can't remember his name either. That's um, but it's a really good bit of business, he's very well rated in terms of Bath's recruitment. So he's gonna do all that contract stuff. Chris Boyd's gonna do his strategy, and Skims can just get back to being on the trading paddock, which is where he's best at. So yes, I think we've I think we've made some good decisions ahead of next season.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

Um and some good signings, and that is a very apt segue into what is our predictions for the Prem Rugby round 11 that kicks off this weekend, and I love a seamless transition from Six Nations to Gallagher Prem. It's nothing better. Uh, and it kicks off with a humdinger, Rory. It kicks off Friday night, Bath versus Saracens. And we have to bear in mind all these team, all these teams they're gonna be balancing returning England players. I think there'll be that rule that they'll have to I think they can only play two out of the next three games, they need to be rested in at least one of them. There's a European game for most of these teams that are a part of that equation, so it's gonna be interesting the players that are gonna be put on put on the pitches. Uh, but I th I fully suspect Bath and Saracens to go pretty gung-ho here.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

I think they'll both go full ball. Um I well, I mean we're trying to get back into a prem state of mind, unless something drastic. I know Saracens have obviously um got the change at the top coming up because now he's leaving, Brendan Vent is coming in. But I don't necessarily expect to make an immediate change in the mood, Saracens, Maven Dampenet, really. Um so I think probably Bath are gonna end up winning this, and it's at the wreck, so I'm gonna say it's gonna be probably not as close as you'd imagine. I think it's something in the region of 3218, 3220.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Yeah, I I I think whatever's going on at Bath, I imagine they've used this period of time to work a few things out. Because I I think things weren't quite going to plan before the Six Nations. Um, so had the all-clear from the um salary officer. Yes, they yes, they have so another man bribed. Yeah, you can pass your audit, but you can't pass the vibe check, Bath. Uh we know what you're up to. But yeah, I I agree. I think um I think Bath comfortable with us here. And yeah, we'll it's a good game to come back to. Next game, Harlequins versus Gloucester, Rory. How would you be there? You go you're going to the stoop. Well, I bet you can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

I'm going to the stoop. I so I I've obviously watched a bit of what Gloucester have done in the in between. We've obviously had a lot of time on the paddock. We don't have had we haven't had too many players away on duty. Obviously, a few of Wales, um, Sebatkinson with uh England. But we've got what we have got is a number of players back from injury back on the paddock. We uh the last game I watched was us away at Bath where Bath went pretty full bore. We went pretty full bore in the Prem Cup um in front of a sold-out wreck, and we ran Bath reasonably close, uh, but we looked much better. We looked much better with the ball. Um, I think they found the formula which is we're picking Charlie Atkinson.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

Yeah, good of thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Um I think we'll win this one. We've not got a great record against Quinn's, but we're not got a great record in general. So I've got that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

I've got quite a vague memory of you coming back from your trip to Twicklem last season, and they just absolutely tore you a good at.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

That's true. That's true. But I still don't rate this Quinn's side, so I'm I'm just gonna uh I'm gonna I'm gonna back us to win this one. I think it'll be something like 22-15 to Gloss.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Okay, yeah, I I think there's gonna be one score in it. Uh whether that's in Gloucester's favour, I'm not sure. Uh I just it's always hard. It's always hard to predict these post-6 nation window games. But just for you, Rory, I'm gonna back your boys, I'm gonna back Gloucester to the boys slightly. Uh and on a similar note, Rory, the next game, Northampton Saints against the Red Bulls.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

Uh well Newcastle are appalling away from home. They are suspect Northampton will be uh all guns blazing. Um no, they won't be all guns blazing, but they'll be Uff Guns Blazing. Um and I suspect this will be something in the region of 45 ten. I really hope you're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

To me, it's got like banana skin slightly riddled on it, because Red Bulls so when we went up to there to play like the first couple of weeks of them being the Red Bulls, they gave us a real scare. Um but they're so bad away from home. They're not a great away from home. I I'm just Northampton historically have never done well on the fringes of international windows, especially ones where we lose a lot of our players. So I'm I'm I'm cautious, but I agree Northampton should win this one comfortably and get the five points. It should be a bonus point win. Um that should be the minimum out of this game. But I'm cautious about the optics and the placement of it in the calendar. Uh but I remain optimistic. Oh well, say it with your chest, David. Saints to win by 50. Uh next game, Exeter against Sail Sharks, the beleaguered Exeter Chiefs who sent their kids out to be stopped on by Leicester Tigers in that silly competition. Uh, up against the Salesharks who really want to start turning their fortunes around in this tournament if they have any aspirations of making any sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:39

I also want Newcastle to stop signing all of their players. I think signed NA the other day a player we'd not we'd never even heard of until a few weeks ago. Yeah, it was quite good. I was off to Newcastle, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:48

Yeah, the thing they're doing that thing where they're signing all the really exciting youngsters that no one's heard of yet, but uh it will probably be quite good when they come to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I'll win this one, I think. I think I think Sale look like they've they've come to the end of a project to me, um, and they need to refresh what they're doing. Um I think X to win this one. I don't think it'll be masses between, I don't think it's gonna be like an absolute drub-in, but it's gonna be something like 29-12. So I think it'll be comfortable-ish.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

Yeah, I was thinking like 30-22. So it'll be they'll they'll keep sail at arm's length, like they'll keep the two scores away. Um, and they'll just kind of grind it out. That's how I see it. And then the Sunday game, uh, Welford Road, Leicester Tigers up against the Bristol Bears, who are just an enigma when it comes to no idea what they're gonna be like. They'll have the likes of Gabriele Batoyback, who is just an absolute wild card when it comes to rugby. But Leicester have been quietly impressive this season.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

Yeah, it's it's this is a this is probably the toughest one to call of the weekend, actually. Um I'm gonna back Tigers on the basis that it's at home, but through no other logic, really. Um, because Bristol fired our our expectations really in this in this season and keep going. Um, but purely on the basis that it's at Welford Road, I'm just gonna back Tigers to sneak it. Could be a really good game. Um 25-22 to Tigers, they're gonna sneak it.

Final Thought And How To Message

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Yeah, I think it'll be a close one. I yeah, I do think it being at Welford Road changes it because I think the way the Bears play, it's like fast and loose, and playing at Welford Road is quite suffocating because the crowd's close to the pitch. It's quite a small I think I remember someone saying that it's the smallest pitch in the Prem in terms of like dimensions. So that sounds like something Tigers would do. Exactly. So I think that's that doesn't play into Bristol's hands at all. Um so yeah, I agree. I think Leicester to win this one by less than a score, but it'll be typical Leicester. But we'll check in next week when we get back to talking Prem Rugby, Rory, and we'll we'll we'll start going back to more domestic issues. We'll do a round up all the signings that have taken place over the six nations. Maybe we can broach the subject that we've kind of ignored until now about the confirmed closed shop uh and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, we'll we'll dig into all that next week. But for this week, Rory, I think that brings this episode of Ruxmalls and Overballs the podcast to a close, and that invites you, Rory, for your final thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

C'est magnifique, vous voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:24

And that, everyone, is Rory's final thought. We have been Ruxmalls overballs. Hope you've enjoyed listening. Remember to like, subscribe, follow, and send them carrier pigeons. Also, I forgot to say you can now send a text to the podcast if you click on the description on whatever platform you listen to. There's a little link that you can send us a text. Send us a text that will answer your question on the podcast. Uh, I haven't tested it out yet, so I don't know if it works. So let us know if it does. Uh but we'll be back again next week. Ta da