S2 Ep 11 - Bomb Squad, Pom Squad & Los Bombas

A 12–0 hole against the All Blacks usually means lights out. Not this time. We break down how England wrestled control back at Twickenham: Ford’s cold-blooded drop goals, a backline reshuffle that added real speed with Marcus Smith at 15, and a pack that went from shaky lineouts to statement scrums. Dingwall and Lawrence offered balance and bite in midfield, while Underhill and Earl set the tone with dominant contact and tireless carrying. It wasn’t perfect, but it was organised, ruthless, and timely—the kind of performance you can build a season on.

From there, we zoom out to the new Nations Championship and what it could mean for global rugby. The stakes are welcome; the risk is a closed shop. We lay out how promotion, relegation, and smart neutral-venue choices could turn this into a true pathway for Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Japan and beyond. Awards chatter adds spice—a prop pushing for World Player of the Year and a young English back rower lighting up the breakthrough debate—while the real strategic trend sits on the bench: the bomb squad era is here. Argentina’s finishers flipped Scotland late, and South Africa still found a way past Italy despite another contentious red, fuelling the TMO fatigue that fans everywhere are feeling.

We wrap the weekend: Wales ride their luck against a slick Japan, Ireland bookend Australia with clinical surges, and France edge Fiji but raise questions about freshness at the top. Predictions for a massive slate ahead—Wales vs New Zealand, Ireland vs South Africa, France vs Australia, England vs Argentina—round out a packed show that blends analysis with honest takes on where the sport is heading.

Enjoyed the show? Tap follow, share it with a mate, and leave a quick review to help more rugby fans find us. Which team owns the last 20 minutes right now—who’s your pick?

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Transcript

Banter, Dog Food And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Rux Balls and Obu Balls. We're back with yet another episode of Rugby Nonsense. And yes, as always, hosted by your favourite Rugby podcast host. It's me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hello, hello, listeners. Welcome back. Hello, David. How are you? I'm very well, thank you, Rory. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

More importantly.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

I'm well. I'm very well. I'm uh I'm still very, very cheerful after uh after that weekend. Lots of things to keep keep an English rugby fan happy.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Was this a morale boosting weekend of ruggers?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Honestly, I I am full of Vim.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Full of record. Wow, we've got full Vim people. Brace yourselves. Uh how how did you uh absorb your rugby this weekend? Was it with uh suitable hydration or just a large amounts of hydration?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, yeah. It's becoming a habit. Yeah, saw a few old mates uh from various walks of life and watched the game in one of the best boozers in London, Turner's old star in Whoppin.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Very nice, Rory. That sounds like a like a good day out. Uh I had a considerably more understated experience where I was curled up on my sofa with a blanket and a dog for about four games of rugby back to back to back, and I had a lovely ill time. Excellent, excellent. Oh, you weren't ill, you were just I went ill. It was it was out of choice uh because I'm getting old, Rory, and it's getting cold, Rory. And um sometimes it's just nice to curl up in front of my projector cinema screen, again, really helping my down-to-earth.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Oh, the other half live, eh, listeners. He gets his dog food and his pasta to the door, and he has a cinema in the house.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

There's a high chance of the dog food being delivered during this again, so that's something to look like.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

How much food does this dog go through?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Uh if I'm honest, Rory, there's been a bit of drama recently around this. Um, well, they said they delivered a box of food. It didn't arrive. Not the one that was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. Have you questioned the other dogs in the neighbourhood? Well, so well, so the delivery company that I shall not name said, Oh, we've lost it, we can't find any track of track of it. Go back to your dog food supplier and let them know. So they've sent me another box, and then two days later the original box arrived. And now I've because of the delay and all that, I've now got the third installment in the last two weeks arriving. So I've got far too much dog food, is my overarching statement here. And you're gonna have a very fat dog. Well, thankfully he's not perched himself up on this chair, because he would be filling the screen behind me. Uh and for those who are listening on a podcast format, I'm referring to the webcam picture. There's a chair behind my head. I appreciate that. Is no use to you listening to this on the podcast. Just a bit of extra colour there for you listeners. David's got some dunkle. Don't say that we don't cover anything other than rugby, because we cover not a lot of dog food, dog food and chairs.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Dog food and chairs, and it's a full it's a full lineup in this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

My and my apparent emergence of not being a man of the people and losing touch. Uh no, it's just, you know, I've always dreamed of having a projector since I was a child, so I'm an adult now, so I did it.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Sure. I mean, you know, nice, nice that you're living your dream, David. I'm talking about. I am living my dream.

Nations Championship Unpacked

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I am living my dream. Yeah. That's that's enough non-rugby nonsense, isn't it, Rory? Let's get into the meat and drink. Let's get into it. So we'll start off with the news and then we'll move on to the weekend fixtures that we have previously alluded to. Uh and there's been a couple of things going on. Uh, unfortunately, this week we don't have an early squad announcement to go off that I'm aware of. I have been busy today, so I haven't been keeping an eye on things, but we have had a new competition announced and a couple of uh awards that have been announced for that's start off with the new competition. What do you make of this newfangled nations championship that's uh going to becoming probably a very important part of our rugby lives, let's face it.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

I think it's a really good idea to try something different. Um, I would say you should treat this as the starting point of this as a as a series. Uh, I would like this to eventually be spun out to include more nations than the ones that are included now. Although good to see the likes of Japan and Fiji being included to give it a little bit extra colour in in terms of um not just the the usual old heads involved. Um but I think as innovations go, look, it's not entirely breaking the mould, but I think offering uh something a little bit more tangible to these fixtures across the summer and and autumn, which um you know for for those of us who are you know schooled in the game and have been uh you know and are sort of steeped in the traditions, the summer tours are special in their own right. And obviously, South Africa and New Zealand have got their regular tours now set up to um uh I was gonna say shaft Argentina and Australia. I don't think they'd like to characterize it like that, but that will be what the end result is. Um, you know, so the the these old tours, these these kind of series, for those of us steeps and steep to the game are you know are meaningful, but actually outside of us, they're not. You know, to a to a layman who's not really involved in the game, England touring Australia or South Africa or New Zealand isn't any more remarkable than you know any other rugby fixture.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no there's no special there's no specialty to it unless you really, really want to know about how whether it's space.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Exactly. So I think from from that point of view, I think it's it's a good ins uh it's a good innovation to add a little bit more of a tangible um importance to these fixtures that you can market. Um I'm hoping this we can see this as the start point rather than the end point. I don't want it, I you know, you don't want the game to just go here and just stand still. You know how getting the old wheels to to creak in rugby to bring any innovations is tough, but now something's happened. I hope they keep building on it. So, you know, the likes of Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

You don't want it to be a closed shop.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Um no, no, I think I think this should be something that that gets spun out more and more. Um, and you know, if you we we know what the difficulties are with introducing new teams to obviously the Six Nations in particular, but also the the rugby championship to an extent as well. Yeah. There shouldn't be any blockages to adding another layer to this championship and in involving uh more promotion and relegation from it, so you can give other teams the opportunities to become involved. You know, there's no reason why someone like Georgia or Portugal or Spain or whoever it is can't aspire to reach the nation's championship and compete in that. And I think that opens the doorway to more uh tier three, tier four nations getting access to the top table. So I say I'm I'm I don't mind it as a start point, I don't want it to be the the be all and end all.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yeah, yeah. I I'm quite excited by the prospect of England doing an away trip to Fiji. I really, really hope that fixture's held in Fiji. Uh I think that would be a nice touch. I'd be surprised if it does.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

They've they have that Fiji games are gonna be held in neutral locations, broadly speaking. They have, yeah, they have said that. So I think we are playing Fiji in South Africa. Right, okay. Um after the game after the game versus South Africa. Yeah. Um, and look, obviously, it'd be great to take a game to Fiji for for the local population. Way to deflate my balloon Rory. Yeah, sorry, sorry to be the bearer of fact. Um, but there there is there is a genuine practical reason behind it, right? It's from Fiji's point of view, it's still it's hard to maximise that commercially. So actually, the Fijian Union will almost certainly end up with a bigger chunk of change off the back of a game at say Loftus Stadium than it will for a game on Suva. As lovely as it would to see the game that would be to see the game there, and you know, as yeah, I do hope that one day we can get to a point where you can do that. Ultimately at the moment, it's it's not necessarily practical, you know. If you've if you've seen where the Drewer play, which would be probably the biggest stadium.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Was it Scotland that went and played there in the summer?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, it's I I would love to go and watch rugby there. I would come to it's unbelievable, listeners. I mean, it's just a constant stream of middle class packages as we try and record this every week. You know, there's nothing I can do about it. Um, honestly. We'll be getting his tweed delivered next. Maybe some bottles of port.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

It's now in a blue box. How exciting.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

That is exciting. That is exciting.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

I've also posted it so there's no free pro free promo for the company behind me.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

No, no. Well, you know, I've got no interest in your dog food other than uh the fact that it keeps disrupting our records. Um as you were saying, Rory. As I was saying, uh so look, I yeah, I would love to go and watch a game over there, but the reality is you there is an opportunity to maximize revenue for everyone out of these, and it's just not a practical way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

It is also logistically not the simplest, I imagine.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

It's you know, there is one major airport in Fiji in Suva. Um there's not heaps of flights, it's not an easy trip for a northern hemisphere team to get to Fiji. So if you want fans in and out, look, you know, obviously boost tourism, but it's it's not easy and it's not necessarily affordable. So um it's maybe not the best way to do it. But you know, maybe one day, maybe one day. Maybe one day I think I think this hopefully opens the door in uh in the not too distant future for opening the game up a bit more at the top table.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah, yeah. And again, it's lovely for there to be another reaction to something I've said in a podcast where last week I was literally saying how I don't see the point in this northern hemisphere versus southern hemisphere narrative. And world rugby are doubling down and saying that's the competition we want to see every two years.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

So I need to get they've responded. They said, Look, you don't see anything in it, well, we're gonna put something behind it. So you're welcome, world.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

You're welcome, world. There's now purpose to our summer and autumn internationals.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

DM DMJ just changing the world one podcast at a time.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

One podcast at a time. And we're gonna get a nice I I'm very much looking forward to this this finals weekend that is being boarded, where you get three days of double fixtures every day. First one being held at Twickenham, where you get the 12th versus 11th. Like, I love I love a weekend where I can binge watch rugby back to back to back to back to back to back. There's nothing.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah, of course, of course. And you know, they've they've made some very progressive steps. They're gonna take the game from Twickenham, probably take it to the USA. They've mooted Qatar and as well. I've no doubt Riyadh will be on the cards.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Um, and then from there I imagine, you know, Beijing, yeah, Tehran, Pyongyang, uh, you know, anywhere world rugby can uh make a few quid.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah. It's always nice to have a cynical view sometimes, Rory, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Uh although probably not too far from the truth. Yeah, broadly speaking, I think I think there's real real high potential with this. Um if if world rugby have have the foresight to do it, that's obviously a big question. You know, let's let's not suggest that that's necessarily um guaranteed, but I think there is an opportunity long term to do something with this. But uh right now, I'm alright. I'm alright with it as a first step. We're alright with it, World Rugby.

Awards Season Controversies

SPEAKER_01 11:42

You're welcome for the idea, and uh we'll we'll see we'll see what comes next. Obviously, as we've as we said often before, a lot of it's always in the execution, and it's a lovely idea. Uh at least this one feels a bit more fleshed out and thought through than say R360, which I don't want to mention again because they seem to be more of a rugby league focused competition these days, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

They're causing they're causing some waves in the uh in the other code, the old Anzacs, but uh seemingly less so this um this end of uh of the polls. So yeah, and I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

I'm okay with that. Uh in other news, Rory, uh the awards, it's awards season in World Rugby. It is, and some some nominations have gone out and it's caused a little bit of a stir, you could say.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Finally, little known, often forgotten about, rare rarely mentioned, uh Northampton's sake's obscure back rower, Henry Pollock, is finally being recognised.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Such a quiet season.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Honestly, I don't know what he's what he's got to do to get uh to get some bloody recognition in this game.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

They must have some real some real rugby naughters at World Rugby to have uncovered him uh to be nominated because he's he's not done much to put his hand up for that at all.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Well, I think what we have to really thank is uh concerted grassroots effort across the globe to build that from the base up, and in no way has uh has this been sponsored by any kind of media campaigns or anything to ensure that Harry Pollock gets his recognition in the awards season. Um, yes, nominated for World Rugby's Breakthrough Player of the Year. All jokes aside, I think pretty well res um pretty well deserved. Um against uh Fabian Holland, the Dutch-born lock player for New Zealand. Uh Ethan Hooker, South African wing, who for those who haven't watched him play, is a phenom. Sadly, I think injured for this tour. But uh he has been playing. He has played a bits and pieces. He played at centre against Italy. That's right, he does. He looks like an absolute superstar. And uh Sue Ali, uh the Australian centre, who made a big splash uh particularly against the Lions.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Last year. A bit late this one. He had his breakthrough last year. Come on, he's taking his time.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Possibly a little bit unfair, but for sure. He's but I I think it's nonetheless a good nominee. Uh yeah, so finally Henry Pollock getting his recognition, and then for the world rugby player of the year, to the chagrin of uh South African fans, they've only got three of the four spots. Uh fuming. They are not happy uh that uh Sasha Feinberg Umgazulu is uh not in there, but Louis Bior Biarray has been included, uh Six Nations player of the tournament, but also included Peter Stef Tatoy, Malcolm Marks, and for prop fans everywhere, Ox and Shay. Come on, Ox. Yeah, I'm I'm back in Ox for this one. Uh, probably actually not the year he should have been nominated, the the two previous years he's been pretty much more dominant.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

We may have discussed how we felt he should have been in the running last year. Um you know, as the suspect they're running a year too late, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Um world rugby run things in arrears. Um but um no, I I I hope Ox wins it because uh a prop has never won world uh world player of the year, and he is he is phenomenal, so I'd be very happy to see him win. But they'd all be deserving winners, of course. There are everyone gets a medal at uh School Sports Day.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Well, absolutely, and well deserved. Um has there been much outpouring on the social medias for any of this Rory that you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

I mean, you know, there's there there's been the usual comment around uh the inclusion of uh an English player in in that, particularly with it being Pollock, but you know, he's obviously not won any trophies, and you know what's what's he really achieved? Was I was only on the bench for the Lions or whatever, but um uh I mean to be honest, I I don't care. I think I think firstly it's quite funny that they they nominated him. I think they do that just to annoy South African fans. Yeah, um, but I I mean anyone who's who doesn't think he deserves to be in there after the year he's had is mad.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

If anyone's arguing that he hasn't had a breakthrough year that's been unseen in the northern hemisphere, maybe at least for some time, you're off your rocker, mate.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Because uh yeah, you've you've not turned your radio on once.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

No, exactly. So yeah, I'm all for it. And yeah, I'm I'm loving what I'm seeing in social media at the moment. I don't know if you've seen the lovely dance that's been going on around the English players and having their little jig in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, I shared that today. Um yes, I shared that today. Uh the comment I had for it was um when you realise the game has finally passed you by.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I I I watched it and I could feel the prawn sandwich parade just getting furious, and I loved it. We we said all through the summer how nice it would be for the men's team to follow suit of the red roses and show a bit of personality. And that with a lovely little jig.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

They have, and you know what, we've we've called we have called for it and they have delivered, and then I've seen it and I've gone, I don't know what this is.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

I think what you're seeing there, Rory, is yeah, it's it's passed you by. This is the TikTok generation, Rory. We just have to applaud because it's certainly been gauging, it's broadly.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Of the two of us, of the two of us, you're the TikToker and you get dog food delivered to your door. So, you know, as I've seen so many videos of other people copying it and mimicking it. You're doing it. Is it or is it a trend? I don't know. I mean, I'm really betraying how how out of it I am. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

There's every chance it's a trend, and they've just picked up on it, but I'm seeing it everywhere now. Um and I'll just I'll I'll encourage anyone to watch it. Just watch how enthusiastic Finn Smith is with his clapping. Oh, he's so happy. He's he's so method, he's he's bought into that role, and it's yeah, it gave me joy to see how much he was enjoying that little that little jig.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Do you know what it did for me there, David? Um, watching England rugby as a fan. I think I think it was the first moment that really crystallized for me um that international rugby stars are so much younger than I am now.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Oh, that's what that's what crystallized it for you.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

That was that was the moment I I really hit home for me that I'm 10 years older than all the at least all of the boys in those videos. Um, and I just thought, right, yeah, no, I don't know what they're doing, and I'm never going to now. That's it. Um you know, it's I I'm out of it. So but I'm I'm I'm choosing to approach this with as a more positive kind of old man who just opened applauds the boys and says, Look, lads, if that's what you guys do, you go and enjoy it. As long as you keep winning on the pitch, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Absolutely, and anything that riles up the opposing fan bases, I'm all for because I've enjoyed reading below below the lines in the those videos. Well, there were some good comments on that. There's some interesting comments that go on there. People obviously you throw Henry Pollock into anything and you you get any opposing fan really agitated, and then you get Henry Pollock dancing with an Alice band in his hair to I I don't know how to describe the song, um I don't know what it is, and doing the can can they're really gonna come out the woodwork. Uh so yeah, please carry it on. I very much enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Uh I think carry it on, lads. Uh I've I've seen the one video now, and I'm just gonna assume you're gonna keep doing them, and David David will keep me abreast of uh of these things as they come out. I will, I will.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I've I I hope there's more. My only issue with it, it's three Saints players and a Leicester Tiger and Freddie Stewart. What's going on there? Well, I'd forgotten how young Freddie Stewart is. It definitely felt like you weren't gonna see George Ford part of that. Uh can you imagine? No, I can't.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

I mean, George I also wonder, do you reckon it may have been a fine? I mean, if it is, it's very different to any fine I've uh I've ever received from rugby teams.

England vs New Zealand: Turning Point

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Well, so on the Lions tour, Henry Pollock was clearly given a fine to go and do a TikTok live. Um and he had to do a TikTok live for half an hour or something like that. Uh and I I tuned into it and it was quite obviously a fine. So the social media is moving into the rugby world fines, and I just I'm just wondering whether this was one of them. But they look like having so much fun, I doubt it was a fine. Uh but yeah, let's move on from that. Um because that wasn't the only thing those England boys achieved this this weekend.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

It certainly wasn't, David.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Uh one hell, one hell of a game that we're gonna talk about England versus New Zealand. Um, a lot of build up to this, a lot of anticipation. Not beating New Zealand in six or so years, hadn't beaten them in at Twickerdam since 2012 or something along those lines. Third win in 21 years or something. And uh obviously we've been talking about these the all blacks who have been on the up, improving, changing styles. And uh well, Rory, take it away from here. What did you take from that game?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Well, it feels trite to say, but it's it it was Forthwick's most impressive uh performance out of his out of this team. I mean that that's obvious. Um I've I've been I mean really enjoying the Kiwi reaction. It's been great to to catch up on uh on Kiwi commentators on this one. Um I think for a lot of the reactions, but you know, New Zealand were on top for the first 20 minutes. I mean they came out 12-nil. That's just about a play I felt personally. Well, well, that's the thing. I think New Zealand had a good 10 to 15 minutes really in that game. First 10 minutes was all England when uh Underhill uh drops the the offload that would have put um Mitchell in, I think. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Something like that. Ford puts over a not great crossfield that misses the mark. But the first 10 minutes was all England, and they were they were lucky to be nil-nil at that point, and then obviously Fine Ganuku and Cody Taylor score. I mean, two good tries, don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and uh obviously the second one in particular comes off the back of uh a pretty glaring error from George Ford where he kicks it out in the full, and then a brilliant 50-22 from Cam Roygaard, who yeah um very clever. I'm just gonna say right now, I mean, I hope he was injured, but he came off just for the sake of Scott Robinson, because if he brought him off tactically, that is disastrous. Yeah, um yeah, that's not a good look for your coaching uh reservoir, is it, is it? He was phenomenal, Cam Roygaard. Um, but from there, I mean, Alex Coles gets uh held up over the line. It's a quite unfair criticism. I think the criticism actually should be probably if you're gonna criticise anyone in that passage of play. I'm actually gonna criticise Alex Mitchell because that ball should have gone behind Coles and then spin spun wide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think sending Coles into traffic at that point. You can make arguments around body angles, but I think you could probably also make an argument that he's in or offside.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coles, Coles the second that ball went to Coles, he was always gonna go for the line because he's not a distributor. He wasn't gonna then shift. He's going full pal. He's going full pal and he's right at the line. You know, this is what you're gonna do. And there was three no three New Zealand defenders there, yeah, maybe offside.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Like yeah, Mitch Mitchell should have spun it behind him, but by the that's by the by. Um uh obviously you're gonna get uh get a scrum and then spin it left, and Lawrence just skittles um Leero Carter, who just I mean, I haven't seen much of him before this tour. Um and he had some good moments in this game with the ball in hand. You can see where the talent is. That that kick and collect that he did. The kick and collect where Marcus Smith does really well to get back and and yeah and stop him and at source, and Lawrence makes a really good turnover on him.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Made Robuck Roebuck look a little slower than I thought he was, but that might be how quickly Roy Carter is. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, well, he's off the seventh circuit, and that's all about acceleration off the mark, isn't it? So you know Roebuck's a different different kind of winger. Um but I think he's been found quite wanting physically there. Um I think more than once on this tour, really. Um, but take nothing away from Rodney Lawrence, hell of a finish. Serious power skinning him and then Bodie Barrett to get over the line. And then from there, England just never looked back. I mean, um I want to take all the flowers from the listeners for my um backing of George Ford this year. Um just once again phenomenal. The kick out on the fuller side and the crossfielder side, which you know, all right, those are those are errors in the first in the first sort of uh 15-20 minutes. Outside of that, flawless. Yeah, yeah. Drop goals. 13 out of 13 tackles, didn't miss a single one. But the two drop goals uh that he made to keep the scoreboard ticking over, you know, it takes it it takes real clarity of thought to do that and to know that you've got the chance to then get back up the pitch and knock another one over. Um you know, it the skill of executing it, I mean it's so far beyond anything I can execute on a pitch is is ridiculous. Um but it's the the the ability to do that in that kind of situation when you've gotten 12-0 down against the All Blacks, yeah, is outrageous, and just proving once again the absolute value of what George Ford brings um brings to this squad. Um I think I think after that performance the shirt's his in all the big games at the moment. I don't think I don't think anyone can really question that now. Um barring something um really really outrageous happening with with Vin or Marcus Smith or you know, obviously injury, but for me he's proved exactly why Borthwick trusts him in that shirt.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Uh Marcus Smith, coming on for for Freddie Stewart, who obviously goes off with an HIA after the gum shield lights up on 22 minutes or so.

unknown 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Actually changing the game when he came on. Um, not that Freddie Stewart was having a bad performance, I don't think. There's been some comment about his performance up to that point, but I should have thought he was fine.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

No bad comments. He had one take in the air that he didn't take, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

It was collected by Benell, and that's why you that's why they practised that. And obviously he shanked one kick, but you know, I'm not gonna dig him out for that because I can't kick for Toffee. Um but Marcus Smith comes on and immediately injects real pace in the in the backfield, um, getting on the on the end of offloads and setting um Benny Ferboso away. Um I thought, yeah, Marcus Smith's probably probably his best performance from fullback.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Oh, in the 15 shirt for sure. Uh that was definitely his best.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Um, you know, proving that he can bring that kind of Damien McKenzie type of impact to a game, which was what the challenge was up against McKenzie being on the bench. And uh the reality is Marcus Smith, you know, absolutely delivered this week and proved he can do that. Whether, you know, I don't think he's I still don't think he's gonna be the long-term solution there when more specialist fullbacks like Furbank uh are fit and available, but proving he is more than adept to fill in there. Um, I mean there's there's so many players to um compliment on this. Uh Fraser Dingwall. Thank you. That was the name I was going to mention.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

For me, he was my man of the match for me personally.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Um I mean, for George Ford for me, but you know, splitting heads that they were all brilliant. I thought in defense, excellent, obviously takes really well taken try, linked play, really well. You did everything you want from Fraser Dingwall as that glue player. You know, you basically fulfilled the mould of what you want in that, and then to come up with a try on top of it, excellent. You know, I I think there's a lot of chat now around you know having found their centre partnership. I think probably at this point you have to say they have.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Um certainly for the Six Nations first fixture, that's what you'd be mad to change it at this point.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, yeah, you'd be mad to change it. Um I thought Feo Abosa was really dangerous. You could see a really concerted effort to get the ball in his hands. Um, I think Tom Roebuck was really good in the air again. Um probably a bit. I think you know, I yeah, that in you know, in terms of splitting hairs of where there are things to improve, I think Roebuck's gonna have some challenges on his defence, um, as Alex Mitchell.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

I wasn't I wasn't sure if it was a tactical call or whether it was personnel, because it there was a clear tactical call to kind of have that blitz from the edge from the winger that I think New Zealand figured out pretty much instantly, and that's why he was caught out.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I think New Zealand are you know probably still the one of if not the best team at getting the ball wide to space when when they're on, and they identified it quit and that's you know they floor them. So I think Roebuck got exposed there, and I think Mitchell as an edge defender as well got exposed there a few times. Uh in some ways, it's not such a problem, Mitchell. I think a lot of his role there is to pressure, pressure the the opposition player rather than necessarily make the big hit, but you'd want him to make at least one of those hits, and he didn't really make any. Um, so you know, probably a question mark there, but again, split in hairs because ultimately I think Mitchell had a pretty good game with the boot, kept the tempo going really well, obviously linked really well with George Ford. So again, you know, he's splitting hairs. So from a back's perspective, overall, half out of ten performance, very little, very little to complain about with it. And you know, ultimately for both centres to get a try and one of the wingers, yeah. I mean you you just you just got to be happy with that, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And how about that pack, Rory?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

That pack. Well, this this is it. This is it. I mean, Finn Baxter and Joe Hayes have absolutely announced themselves to the world as if not world-class, world class adjacent props.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah, they held their own.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Well, more than held their own. You know, they were they were still getting penalties and turnovers at the scrum when Tamite Williams came on. Yeah, yeah. And that was always going to be a question, you know, who who had the better um front row options on the bench because Tomite Williams, Takayahu, and Tozi are a big unit. Mm-hmm. Twice Willis came on at half time for DeGroot and Joe Hayes had him on toast, you know, really, really outmuscled him, which is no mean feat. You know, it's dope. It's that is a hard thing to do. And you know, we you watch any other game he's ignorant break this year, no one's really managed that. Um, Finn Baxter, you know, very good against Cam Neal, um, but also just around the pitch, loads of tackles, um, got his hand on the ball a fair bit. I thought Joe Hayes in defence was really good. Um, you know, it more than once saw him leading the blitz out the line and going after the ball carrier, you know, really impressive from a tight head at any, you know, at any level, frankly. Um Jamie George. Do we talk about the line out? We'll have to address the line out. Um I'm I'm inclined to give hookers leeway when it comes to line outs failing because it's it's it's lots of different moving parts, and I don't necessarily think it was a case of Jamie George not hitting double top every time. New Zealand just read it, but ultimately you throw the ball and you don't hit the hit your jumper. Yeah, you're the one who's getting highlighted for it. So definite question marks over the line out there, but that was for the first half an hour after that. I don't think they lost another one.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah, it definitely shored up uh after I think once once England got their foot back in the game, I think the confidence came back maybe.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Whatever, whatever the problem was, they solved it. Yeah, yeah. I think so. You know, there was obviously an issue there that they'll have to review and address, but actually, you know, particularly when they got up against Argentina, who were great jumpers, but they did fix it after half an hour, and you you want players to fix problems on the field. So Jamie George, Maritoge, Alice Coles, well done for figuring out what they needed to do. The fact that Jamie George led the response to the Haka and had came up with the the idea of of having him and Pollock at both ends, Pollock with his licking his lips. Yeah, I enjoyed that. I can't I can't help but love Jamie George, and the rumours are that he uh took the RFU credit card and took the squad down to um his pub after the game. So uh filling filling his own coffers, which I love to sit love to hear about.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Well done, Jamie George. Very smart, smart move there. Yeah, what what did you what do you make of the slight outpouring of mainly from New Zealand commentators again about the response from the Twickenham crowd to the hacker?

Ford’s Masterclass And Backline Shifts

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Look, I'm not particularly a lover of Swing Low. I I'm it's just it's just not my bag. You know, it feels very on brand for England fans to uh to sing something like Swing Low. Um so it's not it's not something I join in, but you know, you it's a it's a challenge. Obviously, it's a challenge between the teams, but you know, in it in a lot of ways it's a challenge between nations, right? You're throwing down the you're throwing down the gauntlet to to England rugby as a whole that includes the fans in the stadium. I don't think you should boo and jeer the hacker. I think singing over it, I think I'm fine with it broadly. I don't I mean, in as much as I'm fine with singing Swinglow in general, I mean I don't do it, but I if you know if you want to, fine. You know, I I I think it's okay, personally. I you know, I think if if uh Welsh fans were to sing Callon Lan or Bread of Heaven or whatever over it, or you know, Irish fans sang Fields of Athamrai, you know, it's is that gonna be a would that have been a problem, or is it just because it's England fans singing swing line? Um being said, they they're saying that we're the only ones who do it. I don't know if that's true because I haven't really kept track of it, but um No.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Well I've always I've always had this feel like I love the hacker, I love watching the hacker, but you always question like is it uh an advantage to New Zealand that they're able to emotionally get themselves psyched up and aroused physically by being able to perform the hacker while the other team is inclined or forced to not respond? Uh is that a disadvantage? I don't know. But I to me if the if the if the crowd wants to get involved in a response to the hacker, which the hacker itself is a call to arms, it is a challenge that's getting laid down. If the fans want to play a part in responding to that challenge, I don't see a problem with it personally.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, I mean you're you're more eagle-eyed than me if you can spot physical arousal through the through the screen, but um you know for well done for uh keeping your eyes peeled.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Um it's a biological, scientifically sport sp word, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Uh look, I just I just think if if you get to do if you get to do that, then there should be a challenge to it, and ultimately we don't want the England Rugby team Morris dancing, so what what what do they respond to it? We've seen them dance.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

We've seen the England team dance.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Uh yeah, I don't think I'm necessarily going to support that. Uh yeah. I don't yeah, I don't think so. Um I think that's I think that's a good good challenge. You know, I it it made it feel like an occasion.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Yeah, yeah. So the atmosphere looked very, very good by Twickenham Standards. Yeah, I think you know the stadium seemed like it was rocking, so from that I'm alright with it. So stop complaining, is what we're saying. Yeah, opposed to a moaning about it. Uh how about the back row again? Another, I think, performance from Ben Earl saying, okay, Tom Willis, he's gone, fine, whatever, I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

He's absolutely stepped up to the plate. Uh I mean I think it was 20 ball carries by the time he got his yellow card, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

But it wasn't just the fact that he was getting his hands on the ball so much, it's obviously important. It was he was making so many meters post-contact. Um, just using his feet, using his power, you know, just didn't really seem to have an answer for him carrying the ball. I think there was a there was a real question mark how England would go without someone as powerful as Willis. You know, any team would miss someone like that in in their lineup. But Ben L, I think, has stood up so well, and he's obviously been given the keys to that shirt. You know, he's he he's been told, prove your prove your England's number eight. And over these last couple of games he started there. It just feels like he's absolutely showcasing why he's the man for for that job. Um, so no, I I I was so impressed by his performance. I mean, by the whole back rope. I think Guy Pepper just so busy, just constantly involved in picking up second balls, hitting rucks, slowing down their ball, um, making tackles just everywhere. And Sam Underhill, just proving the mantra if Sam Underhill's fit, you pick Sam Underhill. Yeah, um power he exudes. I mean, not just for his his try, which was which was a lovely finish through the tackle, but just in everything he does. Like the he's just he is the world's best tackler. It's that's that is just now settled, I think. Um you can't you can't deny him, I think. And if you've got the ball handings anywhere near you, you know, are you just have cold sweat going down the back of your neck because he's he's just gonna end up.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

You have to run in fear. You just that's the only solution.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Your only option. Um I the whole back row is brilliant. And I thought Tom Curry and Henry Pollock when they came on were great again, just injected so much energy. Pollock in particular, rear just exuding energy. Um, but the harassment off the back of the scrum, you know, obviously not necessarily legal um in terms of breaking off the scrum early, but that's what flankers do.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Are New Zealand fans complaining about uh Flanker bending the rules and getting away with it?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Well, look, I'll be honest with you, Kiwis are complaining in general, but Kiwis are always complaining, so I'm not gonna worry too much about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

You'd never catch Richie McCaw bending a rule, would you?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Well, exactly, exactly. You know, um you know harassing Cortez Rasima to to dribble that ball through to for Robert to finish is just epitomizes what what he's about as a player. Just that buzzy, annoying, in your face, just exactly what you want from that type of player. Um, you know, and that's on top of making a 50-meter break as well, you know, getting a turnover penalty. He he just impacts games, and then you've got Tom Curry there who's just never does anything wrong, you know, taking line out ball at the back of the lineup to you know to set up what should have been a um should have been a try for George Ford. Um on that, did the TMO want to find any excuse to disallow that try?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

I mean, obviously checking it for the knock on, it's not a knock-on, so he's rolled it back as far as he can to find everyone breaks the 10-meter line for the line out. Everyone does. You watch, I guarantee you watch any scrum or line out on any attacking play, and 99 times out of a hundred, when the team is running the ball, they are offside.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

It's the only time I've ever seen that pinged. I've never seen it called.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

It doesn't get pinged because no one does it, because your job is to break that line. Yeah, your job is to is to push that because you're trying to beat the defence to the to the gain line. So everyone does it. Um, so by the letter of the law, it's it's a penalty, fine. But at what point are the TMOs gonna stop searching for reasons ruining the fun?

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, to yeah, TMOs are under a little bit of a spotlight at the moment, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Um they've been shite, David. That's why. They have been shy. Um, and that's on top of I mean, to be honest, I don't think Piardi had a was having a very good game as referee either, frankly. Uh I thought he was very average.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I don't I don't think he has many games where he does that particularly well. I'm surprised he's so highly thought of, if I'm being brutally honest.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

I'm being brutal, he's not good enough. Uh and it's not really like us to properly dig out a ref like that, but just not good enough. Um if I was a New Zealand fan, the Cody Taylor, Timbin, I mean it was a cynical thing to do, but a yellow card there on the halfway line? That part of the pitch. First penalty of the game for New Zealand. Uh it felt like he wanted to give a card. I mean, just bizarre decision. Um, you don't know, you know, was England then go and score. Uh, Sam Unhill scores a couple of minutes after that. It is a penalty. Like, they want to call it a penalty, but again, should the TMO be getting involved with that? I don't think so.

unknown 40:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Like, TMOs aren't there to review every ruck for every sort of minor.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

And and there's also I thought that didn't there used to be a rule, uh it may still exist that you can only go back so many phases. Like, they seem to be going back like minutes sometimes to some instances.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

They they just need to butt out. What World Rugby has gotta change it because it's it is it's poor. Um, you know, we're gonna talk about another red car for South Africa um this week, but I I honestly I'm struggling to think of correct TMO decision at the moment. Um and I'm I'm I'm dangerously close to siding with Springbok fans that they're being persecuted. Um don't don't let them hear you say that, Rory. I know, I know. I just I just don't get what they're trying to do. They they are they're not there police games, they're they're there to facilitate games. Do you know what I mean? It's that's your your goal isn't to be uh you know the police, it's just to ensure the game runs smoothly. So fucking back down.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

But out, alright. Um before we move on to some of the other games, from a New Zealand perspective, there's been some talk. Bowden Barrett didn't have a great game.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Uh readful game, worst game, but apparently went into the game with a quad strain, which is why I wasn't kicking for corners. So they picked him injured. He got Damien McKenzie on the bench.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Yeah, that seems like a just daft odd decision to make. Last hurrah, maybe there's talk, maybe he'll be stepping down. Maybe it was his last game, but didn't want the for all right about announcing it.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Then this is test match rugby, quickenham, against you know, against England. It's not the time for sentiment. If he's not going to play, if he's retiring, but he's injured, you don't give him a start against England. You pick Damon McKenzie, surely.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, yeah, well, that that's what logic says, Roy. But as we've discussed numerous times, logic doesn't always prevail in the world of rugby.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Um, I I think you know, when Cody Taylor was off the pit off the pitch and they got that somewhat dubious penalty um around the halfway mark and they tapped and went and then kicked it into the air two phases later. I just remember sitting there, you know. I was in the pub and I was a bit, you know, I was fairly well cut by this point, but I was sitting there just thinking, I don't got any idea what they're doing. You know, I would back myself to have a reasonable idea for a reasonable idea for rugby, you know, otherwise I wouldn't be arrogant enough to do it on a podcast. I couldn't see the game plan outside of strike moves. I couldn't see much of there was nothing in this there was nothing structured. Like, yeah, I just thought I I genuinely thought watching it, I thought that they're actually quite average. You know, there's lots of there's obviously loads of talented players in there, you know, Peter Larkay, Ardi Savia, Fine Genuku, Pyre, Proctor, Will Jordan, you know, Leroy Carter, I say I think, you know, I think you can really see the promise there. Um but I didn't quite see much of official.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I think I think what we saw there was the collection or the evidence that we've been saying the last couple weeks where it just doesn't it hasn't felt like New Zealand have been world beaters, even though they've been picking up wings wins. I think what we saw here was a game where it wasn't their best performance, and we're seeing what's wrong with that team at the moment. And it is, it just does it feels disjointed, it doesn't feel like they've got clear direction.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Uh yeah, I don't I don't feel like they know what they're trying to achieve. I mean, we spoke a couple of weeks ago that looking at the best players in that team, so you're look talking about Fine Gunner, obviously Caleb Clark was injured for this one, Topia at 12, um Peter Larkye, Ardi Savia, Wallace TT, who I just I don't understand why they started him on the bench. Um, but what you have there is a collection of world-class power runners, whatever else you want to say about them. They are world-class power runners, and they're just not utilising that. They're they're spinning width to width when they I really what they think they should be doing is sending those guys up the guts a bit to to cause chaos and send defenses going backwards.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Do you reckon there's just a reluctance to revert to that style because New Zealand have been known for so long for being the great entertainers?

Pack Power, Lineout Woes, And Haka Chat

SPEAKER_00 44:21

I I this is some some of the comments I've seen from you know from from Kiwi commentators since is they're questioning whether you know, are they too arrogant to see that you know, because they're not doing say like a 6-2. They don't they're not trying to impose like a bomb squad type thing. You know, are they too arrogant to suggest that they can learn things from from what other nations are doing and to and to uh accept the right on the wall because they're not they're not improving their eyeball in the kicking game in the same way that other teams are and they're losing out there consistently, you know, they're not getting uh go forward up front the way that you'd expect a New Zealand team to do so because they're they're not really utilising those players the way that you would if you would if you were just running a power game. It feels to me like it feels a little bit like Scott Robertson is either out of his depth or has run out of ideas, um, which is mad to say when you think how well rated he was as a Crusaders coach, um and how excited I mean not just New Zealand, to be honest, everyone was when he got s when he got picked as New Zealand because everyone thought he was going to turn them into something really, really special. It hasn't materialized.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Um, but yeah, but it is at a time where that that playing squad is going through quite a bit of change. It's also in an era of very dominant springbox, and what I'd like to call is the slow uprising of the Northern Hemisphere to be able to cope with the Southern Hemisphere's style of play. Uh so it's tricky.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Okay, fine. But when have New Zealand ever been behind the curve before? They're all they've always been they've always dictated the curve. All the curve. Yeah. Yeah, everyone follows, you know, up to up to now, everyone follows New Zealand's wake for for playing style to one extent or another. Well that's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

But but New Zealand, but they're not in they're not doing anything different, they're not innovating the same way they used to. They're not finding ways to play the game a bit differently. Um, and they're not even doing the things that teams like South Africa and England are doing well to counter that.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Um I I think it's gonna be really interesting how international rugby develops because I I genuinely think the bomb squad or the POM squad or basically loading your bench with your best players is going to become a bit more of a regular thing. Because we saw some of the other teams, so Argentina, for instance, kind of did that. Yeah. We're starting to see that if you can have your best players on the pitch for the final twenty, you can win games even if you weren't the best team for the first sixty. And I think people are realizing that maybe the Springboks were onto something here. Because I I I it'll be interesting to see how whether that trickles down to club rugby. Um and whether this is we're gonna see a kind of change in the way people see the use of their squads and how to utilize a bench in that way.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Well, the only way to really counter it, I guess, is to is to have a starting team as good as uh.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Well, or to blow or blow a team away so that you're so far out of sight that it doesn't matter who you bring on. But that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

These things yeah, these things will come in cycles, but at the moment, yeah, it does seem like it's going that way. Um but you know, let's be fair, that England starting team were brilliant for the first five minutes until Genj, Stewart, Pollock, and Curry all came on.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

They didn't come on and up the game, they just came on and maintained the level that that the guys performed it, which is just credit to credit to everyone involved.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah. You know, it's it's a it's a hundred percent a 23-man game at the moment. Um so and I I actually that if you look at so obviously Marcus Smith comes on after 22 minutes, Bellingham South only plays the last couple, Spencer only plays the last six or seven, Fords. Outside of that, get Camendickey comes on at 44 when George has been injured, Genj, Stewart, Pollock, Curry all come on on 56. If we look at New Zealand, uh they change they're loose head at half time, they're scrum half five minutes after half time, uh, they're 10 on the 55 minute mark, uh, they're tight head a minute or so later.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

There's no plan there, is there?

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Is it it it just it's not it doesn't seem like um a clear tactic with your squad. That's just reactive to me. That that just reads as pure reactive, and obviously some of its injuries and some you know whatever else, but you know, it it's it doesn't strike me that New Zealand are are looking at an 18-minute game and going, look, this is when we think we need to inject pace, you know, and it's not like they couldn't have seen what England were gonna do come in because they've been playing England have been you know using this bomb squad consistently now um uh in one form or another. So they should have known, they must have done.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So it's an interesting one. It is an interesting one. But yeah, you know, England coming away, Victor's great performance, as you say, one of Borthwick's best performances as a coach, really getting the best out of this team. Uh and it does feel like England are moving in a positive direction still, which is really, really nice to be uh after a few years of not feeling that way. Uh there's a there's a feel-good factor around that squad. Um may that continue. Before we move on to the other games, little nod to the England A team. They got a last gasp win against a passionate and probably ever surprisingly team, very competent Spanish team.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah, yeah, really got themselves out of jail um with this one with two tries in the last sort of five or six minutes. Um, Spain uh I think went 22-7 up at one point, something like that. Um, you know, they really really put England to under pressure on this one. Um, so I think I think what you're probably seeing there is the Spanish team are on the on the rise, you know, the way they played from the from what I saw, the style of play very similar to how Portugal played at the World Cup, very similar to how Chile played at the World Cup.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Um seems to be a real trend amongst some of the emerging nations in terms of uh very fast mobile offloading, uh quite quick. Quick ruck speed. Yeah, I think probably with a acknowledgement that they don't have the the power athletes up front that a lot of the more established nations do, but a very, very entertaining brand of rugby. Um, England, you know, I guess team just as is again still suffering from a lack of cohesion. But Callory scored a very nice try. Um, Fizzelow scored, Keppu Tupelotu scored, and then Ben Redshaw scored off a lovely crossfield from Charlie Atkinson to win the game on the 77th. But yeah, so nice to see a bit of connection there between the cut the Gloucester lads. So hopefully that uh is a sign of things to come for us. Yeah, hopefully they bring that to King's Hole. Yeah, fingers crossed. Um, but I think you know that obviously the Spanish will be very disappointed for to let it go, um having been in the lead for the vast majority of the game, but certainly some good signs for them that they're able to compete with the England A's.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Um it wasn't the full, full Spanish squad either. Like they had a number of their best players not there, so it does bode well for Spanish rugby as well, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you know, good signs for them. Hopefully, they can carry that on. Uh, hopefully the likes of Portugal, because they've had some difficult results this year, um, absolutely tonked by Ireland earlier this year. I think that resulted in some real questions being made of their leadership. Um, but I think with uh with a bit of the emergence of rugby in those nations, good results for Czech Republic had a good result, I think. Um grow really growing rugby in Czech Republic at the moment. Um Belgium are currently playing Samoa to get the final Yeah, there's a chance they might be World Cup bound against the odds, but there's a chance. Yeah, yeah, in fact, it's drawn 13 all. I don't know what the implications of that are actually. Um they finished they finished 13 all between Samoa and Belgium. For now, for those of us who grew up watching, uh watching Samoa, that is uh an interesting draw. Actually, it means Samoa go through, which is fortunate for Belgium, but probably probably good for uh in general. We'd love to see Samoa there. But uh, Belgium getting a draw against Samoa is is massive.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

I fall from grace that.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

So but yeah, some some really interesting emerging emerging nations coming through. Brazil looking like they're they're on the on the up as well. Obviously, Chile, Uruguay and Peru in South America as well are on their way up. Uruguay um performed pretty well against the all blacks 15 um by all accounts. So yeah, look, I think there's there's some really interesting stuff happening in the emergency, which is why I'm hoping that this uh nations championship is going to open some doors.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if they do like a uh a shadow competition in the background where maybe we can have some of the A teams playing some of these emerging nations or something like that.

Bomb Squad Era And NZ’s Identity

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Uh well, yeah, I think I think that would that's one way to go about it. Or does I do each other promotion and relegation? Well, I think you know, I I think you can take a slight model from the Nations League in football they're doing in Europe, where they've got uh the way it's worked out is is tiers of nations. So you've got like it goes from A through to E or E, which means in the lowest pot, you've got the likes of Gibraltar playing Luxembourg, which is great for teams like that because rather than just watching their team lose 13 nil every week, they've actually got games they could win, which in international football is difficult. But you can you promote and you go up and down between those, um between those pools, says promotion relegation. I think that's an option uh long term. I don't know how feasible it is right now, but that's that's something I would I would I would be hoping they'd be looking into it. Um I mean to give you an idea, Brazil today, 4031. Okay. So that shows that Brazil aren't far off from that from that level either. So, you know, it it feels like I there's there's a bit of a shift change in some of these nations, and you've got to take advantage of it. Um I I would hope the nations championship will will help do that.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Now, should we move into some of the other home nations games, Rory?

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Well, should we talk about Wales finally getting their first win? Did you watch the game, Rory? I did, I was quite pissed by this point. I didn't watch the game.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Um I felt Japan were excellent.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah, they were. Yeah, yeah, they they really were. Um and I think they could they're rightly aggrieved to not have won that game. Um I would I would go so far as to say uh they should have been comfortable winners in this one. Um you can see that they are they they are missing that um solidity up front that the strongest Japanese teams 2015-2019 in particular had compete with the uh more traditional packs. Um I think they're still they're still missing missing that and to to be honest, they need to um they need to find a way a more scalable way to produce top level forwards, um particularly in the back five. I know it's not easy to find six foot five plus forwards in Japan to play rugby, like you know, you know, there's no disrespect, that's just the reality of the the way these these things go, but they need to find a more scalable way to do it because you know the current way I don't think is not a long-term solution. Uh but the speed and uh accuracy of some of their attacks is great. I mean, you know, they've got likes of uh Ishida on the wings who are really, really exciting. I think Saito at nine is great. I think plays down at Toulouse, Saito. Uh I thought the fly half I thought was pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah, he was pretty good. Uh he had to go off, didn't he, with a HIA towards the end.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Towards the end, but up to then I thought he was I thought he was good. I I think they've they produced really good props. Their front rows are really exciting, really mobile. Um and yet Wales frankly got away with it.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Yeah, thankfully Jared Evans isn't afraid of a big moment.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

No, no, uh, which is just as well, because if they'd lost that, I think the arse probably falls out of things. You know, it's not it's not positive though, as a win. It's it's it's as it's as unpositive a win as it gets, really, it's in some ways, because this was an opportunity for Wales to lay down a marker as to um why their ability doesn't match their world ranking at the moment, and really all they did was confirm it because it's 12th and 13th, and they look at it.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah, all they've done was it confirmed they're they're at the level they're at, um, and that is their level.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Um yeah, they are 12th in the world, and they're just marginally better than 13th.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

That's and I would argue that that marginality is very small. Uh yeah, and possibly not even that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

It's don't think they deserve the win at all. No, um no, I don't think they did. Um obviously, you know, Japan have I think you know some discipline issues with some of the um but then Josh Adams gets self-red card as well, so that's not unique to Japan.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as we discussed, it's not it's not been unique to any team this uh autumn seeing certain color cards. Uh I was very impressed from a Japan perspective with Dylan Riley. And I I know you're you're probably alluding to the fact that that their well, their current process of filling their team is to kind of fill themselves up.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

I'm I I don't I don't um begrudge them picking up players that weren't born in Japan, you know, every country's that included England. Yeah, that that's that's my issue isn't isn't that someone called Dylan Riley is in the Japan team by any stretch. I don't think that's probably and Dylan Riley's really, really good player. Actually, I think we're getting a lot of teams higher ranked than than Japan. I think he's a really genuinely very good player, they should definitely pick. My issue is my my my thing with it is you know, in terms of the scalability of a sport in a nation, um, long term, and we've seen this, you know, you've seen it in Scotland, um, you've seen it in Ireland, you know, it you've seen it in a lot, you know, the USA is another good example of where this is a problem. You without a genuine uh conveyor belt of players across the board in all positions coming through, it's you're you're never gonna be able to create sustainable success, you know. Yeah, because you're you're one injury away from being ramshackling. Just listen to to some of the talk about Scotland at the moment and what they're where they're gonna come to after this quote unquote golden generation comes to an end.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Um I will I will say this golden generation theory has come purely out of Scotland fans. Yes, quite quite.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

They've won a lot of Calcutta Cups, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Well done.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

Um I yeah, I just want what I want is what I really want is for Japan to have uh a genuine grassroots game that that brings through they're obviously very reliant on the universities and the Japanese leagues are all very reliant on corporate investment. You know, what what you really want is for there to be a genuine throughput of Japanese players um playing top-level rugby all over the world, but obviously strengthening the Japanese leagues and filling in the the the site because if your reliance is on national naturalizing players to fill problem positions all the time, yeah, you're long you just long term it's just a problem.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Um that being said, yeah, Dylan Riley, fantastic, you know, genuinely. I think Eddie Jones named him as the best center he's best outside centre he's coached or something, you know. Which he's coached. Yeah. I mean it that can always just be an Eddie Jones. Um there is always a risk of that, yeah. Uh Eddie Jones is him if uh if there is such a thing, but uh You know, he is genuinely brilliant. I think from Japan's perspective, they can be genuinely disappointed with not having won this game.

unknown 1:00:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

I don't know what the rest of their tour looks like, actually, off the top of my head. I think that might be the tour over, in fact. You know, Eddie Jones has got some problems to solve if they want to get out the group stages at the next World Cup. I think I don't think this is the team of 2019 by any stretch, and I'm not sure it's going to be. But that being said, maybe Eddie will pull something out of the black bag with them. Because they can they can pull off a result, I think. Yeah, on the on given the right day.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

But hey, they could be drawn in a group with Wales. Um well getting their payback. Quite, quite.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Uh yeah. Um, but uh in fact they played Georgia this weekend in Georgia. That'll be a good game. That should be a good game. Um, but from a Welsh perspective, you know, wipe the sweat off your brow, you got away with one. But yeah, lucky.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

Lucky, lucky, lucky. Very, very fortunate. Yeah, and there wasn't really any players from my perspective who really came out with more credit in the bank they went in with. Well, this is this is the thing. Um no one seems to be standing up and taking that team from the scraffling deck, especially without Jack Morgan.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Without Jack Morgan there, I mean maybe Alex Mann. I mean, I still think Thomas Williams stands out as yeah, but he he's not he's not he's not imposing himself on these fixtures, is he? No, but again, I mean he's got similar issues that we talked about when he's at Gloucester. He's just behind a pack that's not really going anywhere. Um, it's just you know, what do you do? Um yeah, Mann was was okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

He was busy, he was doing his best to try and fill the boots of Jack Morgan, I felt. But who can?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

No, yeah, who can? I mean, I I yeah, I don't think I don't think anyone I mean Blair Murray now looks like a weakness in that sides, and wasn't that long over thinking he was like one of the few shining lights.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Yeah, we we were arguing saying he should have been on the Lions tour. It it seems all of a sudden his his weakness under the highball is is it's a liability. Yeah. Um Reese Zamitz. Yes, he's quick, but I do not like the way he's reacting every time something doesn't go his way. Like he just seems to have a little mini strop if he drops the ball or something that doesn't pay off. I was like, not a big fan of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

I've got a bit uh yeah. At the moment, the moment it looks like a very long road for this Welsh team to get back to any kind of level. Um you know, I'll put a quote to to Drakey who who listens to the pod and our mate and our man in Wales to tell us what the grassroots looks like and whether we can you know we can expect I know that there are some good there are always some good players in the Welsh youth.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

There always will, you know, it's it they do they do produce good players, but because it's uh that Leggett Jones who's coming through, who's like their next best fly half. Maybe he'll bring with him for some reason they don't want to try Morgan Morse out. He's always looked stood out as a ball carrying uh youngster. For some reason they don't want to give him a chance. Don't know why that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

So I don't know. I don't I genuinely don't know. I don't I wish I had better answers because it's now it's now incumbent on me to try and find positive things to say about Wales. Um but at the moment I don't have anything to offer to offer the in-laws. Oh apologies, in laws.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

Okay, well let's let's let's quickly move on from Wales then because there's a we're at risk of uh angering the in-laws. Don't want to do that. Uh let's talk the Scotland game versus Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

Well, um Viva Los Bombas. Um I mean, for an hour Scotland cruised it, didn't they? Um Darcy Graham cruised it. Darcy Graham, yeah. Darcy Graham was phenomenal. I I mean, to be honest, I thought for the first hour Scotland were a real armchair. It was an armchair performance for them. Um Argentina a bit of a uh a reshuffle in their team, really um, really sluggish, I think. Their handling was poor.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

So I was watching them for the first 60 minutes, as you say, and I was like, this looks like a team that's had a long calendar and they're coming to the end of a lot of games.

England A Escape In Spain

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

These players, yeah, these players don't get much rest. You know, a lot of them play in France, play a lot of games. Um, you know, they are they get flogged at club level, they don't have the same type of ties that say the South African uh union does to get their players' rest period. Um, you know, because Latina and South Africa basically play a 12-month season because of the rugby championship being when it is, um, but most of their team playing in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Um and what but what South Africa are able to do is they rest a lot of players at the club side, they they communicate with players that are elsewhere in Japan or France or whatever or England um and get as much rotation and rest in as they can and negotiate that. Argentina don't really have that at the moment, they don't have that kind of leverage to do that. So their players just play a lot of games, and I thought for the first hour they just looked like a team that needed a rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Um that's what I thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

And then Santa Carreras came on, and actually they were a team that just needed Santa Carreras because he came on and taught Scotland a new hole.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Yeah, a whole new one, a whole new one, slap bang in the middle of that back line.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Um yeah, uh I thought between I mean that uh yeah, Los Bombas, so Carreras, Moyano, Garjo, Korea, Marchetti, and Matera all coming on on about the 45-minute mark. Bomb squad. Um just Los Bombas just really just turned the tide of the game. Um took about 10 minutes or so. But then I mean players of that quality to have Santa Carreras and Matera on your on your bench. I mean, any team would kill for that, even the even the to that love that. Um, because they are genuine world-class players who'll be in and around the conversation for a world 15. Um, but I tell you what, it does it in glaring contrast to the Scottish bench, just showed what they're able to do, and just all of a sudden the passes start sticking, and they just redded Scotland. Um, from Scotland's perspective, if you want to know where you go from here, um, does Townsend just say that I'm gonna head off to Newcastle and leave it to someone else?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Did you see that there's someone tried to start a petition to get Gregor Townsend sacked?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah, really?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Oh, good, that's nice. Yeah, it's nice. Um it's nice of a they were trying to say that they were a lifelong Scotland fan and they were behind the Scottish rugby and yet was wanted to start a petition to get the coach sacked.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

It's an interesting interesting um approach to it. Um yeah, no, um I mean Shining Lights for Scotland, you and Ashman, brilliant. I thought, really, really good. Um I think Hutchinson stepped up pretty well in the absence of Hugh Jones. Yeah, yeah, very good. Look at an international player, Darcy Graham was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Yeah, I very much enjoyed the uh the two different boots as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

Yeah, yeah, love that. Uh Carl Stan I thought was pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

I just think we've scared. You think back to the first 60 minutes and you'll be like, oh, it's quite a positive review. You're you're comfortably winning a game.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Up to that point, I was I was there sort of you know nursing a hangover, thinking, oh, this will just be uh uh blowing a bit of Caledonian smoke, and we'll get through it. And then all of a sudden, Argentina just just turn the screw. Um and look, I I genuinely love this Argentina team to watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

I love I love watching them. I do love watching them.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

They are they're everything, everything you want from from they play great heads-up rugby, they're running off the ball, I think. Maybe second to France, but other than that, I can't think of anyone else who who runs off the ball better than Argentina, just constantly creating options, constantly creating options for offloads. Um the the speed and ranginess off the pitch, the thighs on Iskro and Carreras, uh, you know, great thighs, and Malia actually, just wonderful, lovely set of thighs, wonderful thighs. Um, and then you just got just the silkiness of someone like Santa Carreras, who just when he's on, he is just outrageous. Yeah, yeah. And then you just combine that with just how bloody hard Matera, Petty, uh Montoja, Gonzalez, Rubiolo, Gonzalez, Rubiolo, just nails, all nails. I mean Rubiolo, I mean he's only like 22.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

You know, he could be well, well, okay. I'm gonna say I think it could be the next it could be the next Leguismo for for Argentina.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah, yeah. I I can't see why he wouldn't be able to do that. He's just talented manic. He's he's got the size, he's got he's got that physical edge to his game, and he he could easily be a hundred kappa, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah. I mean, there isn't there isn't a necessarily a weakness to this Argentinian side other than their concentration levels.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

Yeah, and we and we spoke about that in the summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

Yeah, I think I think that's that's all it is, is when they switch off, it goes to pop very quickly, which England were able to exploit in the summer, Scotland exploited for their first few tries. Uh, but and you know, it happened to them in the rubber championship. But when they're when they're on it and they're all going in the same direction and they're and it switches for them, absolutely unplayable, as pretty much everyone has found out at some point over the last year or two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so if they can figure out how they do that for 80 minutes, they're they're a consistent 80-minute performance away from being the best team in the world, I think. That's that's the difference at the moment. The difference between South Africa and everyone else at the moment is not the player, the the individual players being necessarily better than everyone else against, in some cases, yes, but not every South African player is better than every other player in that their position in the world. But the South Africans have that ability to be phenomenal for 80 minutes every single time. Well, you say that they just have that concentration level.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

You say that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

But we'll talk about a South Africa game shortly. We was okay, but let's be honest, that's not South Africa's starting team in a World Cup final, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Yeah, okay.

Wales Edge Japan And Growing Pains

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

But this the Argentinian first the Argentina first 15 at full tilt, given a full 80-minute performance at their ceiling, gives anyone a game. Yeah, anyone. Um and they could easily be the beat any team in the world at that at that level. Yeah, yeah. On their deck. I genuinely I genuinely believe that. Yeah, yeah. Um maybe, maybe a bit still a bit suspect at scrum time. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe don't have the the props they've had in the past. But short of that, they don't really have a weakness.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

No, no, as you said, their only weakness is that they don't switch on all the time. Um and when they switched it on, they put Scotland to the sword. And uh it's interesting to see where Scotland go from here, because it's not been a great autumn for them at all. Or it's not been a great year for them, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

No, um they're just they're not they're not kicking on at all. You know, we took we spoke about it before. It can't just be about ruining England's six nations chances every year. That can't be your only goal, and up to this point that does seem to be the only thing that really gets gets them up for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

Yeah, and that is the only thing that challenges the dust in the trophy cabinet at the moment as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

Seems to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Um there's a lot of dust in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

And look, they you know, we took we talked about this being a full squad game. Matt Faksen comes on for Gregor Brown after eight minutes, Miller Mills comes on for Darcy Ray on 33 minutes, Vander Merva comes on for Hutchinson on 65, George Turner and Josh Bayliss come on at 71 minutes. By the time Vander Merva, George Turner, and Bayliss come on, games gone. Well, it's not gone, but it is rapidly slipping out of their grasp. They've still got they don't they don't bring the substitute Lucette on, they don't put him at bear. Apologies if you're an actor. Uh they leave George Horn on the bench, they don't bring on Tom Jordan. You know, what other team that's at the top table international rugby isn't using their full bench? Oh especially if a game's slipping away from you. You you don't use the bench, wouldn't you? Well, you've got to change the momentum, and they're not trusting their full bench. That says a lot about this Scotland squad, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

Yeah, interesting. Interesting to see where we go from here with Scotland. Um, I know there's a quite an unhappy fan base, as I mentioned, that that petition go around. Uh it'd be interesting to see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

And do we think the players are coming through? Like there's there's some there are some talented players in the Scotland youth. There's some wouldn't I wouldn't call it a full conveyor belt.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

No. Well, is it any surprise that every now and then we see a ex-England under 20 who gets picked up to go play for Wales? Uh not for Wales, for Scotland. Uh, because the conveyor belts not there, so they they do look elsewhere, and that's what this is fine. But but as we said with Japan, that that isn't a long-term solution for a route to rugby success.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

It's not, and it also um it probably should give Scottish fans pause the next time they suggest this this year is our year when it comes to Six Nations. Because ultimately you're they're not they don't perform at that level. Well, when they have when was our time to beat Ireland? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Well, have they?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Yeah, genuinely, it's uh genuinely, it's I think it's more than a decade. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

You know, that's one of the things that's golden generation, Rory. Golden generation.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

You know, it's never beaten New Zealand, don't haven't really often beaten South Africa or Australia. Now giving up a 20-point lead against Argentina with 20 minutes to play. Where is your level?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

Well, I think they're ninth in the rankings now. Maybe that's just your level, Scotland fans. That might be the high watermark at this point. Just you know, try and try and keep your head above Wales, is all my advice would be. Um, because you know, that's that might that might be the the only thing they can do. Yeah, yeah. Maybe maybe that's the goal. Uh, but I don't want to kick Scotland fans when they're down. Um, why not? Uh, because then it comes our way when they go and inevitably ruin England's grand slam in a Calcutta Cup match, but you know, we're used to that. Um, but yeah, uh and the Ireland game.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:29

Yeah, weird game. Yeah. Traital Rain. Uh Australia getting off to a dreadful start.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

Um Mac Hansen getting a hat-trick in the first half an hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

Uh, and then Ireland scoring another three tries in the last 10 minutes. With sort of the middle 40 minutes, yeah, 30, 40 minutes. Um, I mean, only with a better team, but not mark markedly, but just Australia just um they looked tired as well. Yeah, yeah. Um I think for them they look like a squad that's gone on some real emotional turbulence over the last what would it be, five, six months. Yeah. Lions tour, which they obviously lost despite you know, a bit of promise, but you know, certainly just disappointing to not would have been just really disappointed with that. Didn't get the Blederslow in the rugby championship, despite some really promising performances. Yeah. And then they've just come on this their spring tour at the Autumn Internationals, and I mean, but a pretty poor loss to England, very poor loss to Italy, and now a pretty poor loss to Ireland. Um, five different fly arves have started this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:51

James O'Connor had a bit of a howler, I'd I'll say.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Well, yeah, he did. Um, but it doesn't help when you know you just don't have that kind of continuity in the team. I think you know, it's Joe Joe Schmidt's last game as head coach, I believe. And I think I genuinely think he's left them in a much better position than he found them. Um financially, certainly. They are systemically improving. Um, you know, you can you already know about the there's been massive improvements at the grassroots. Their ghouls team have beaten New Zealand schools twice this year, scored over 120 points against them across those two games, conceded like less than 40, I think, something like that. Like, not like wasn't close, they battered them twice. Um I don't call them clubs, franchises, regions, um, much improved performances um from some of those teams, particularly the Brumbies, but Tars, the Reds, um, even the Western Force looks looked pretty good. Um, and there's been some a definite uptick in in performance levels over the last couple of years, massive, like genuine uptick.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

But possibly now we'll need a fresh impetus. Maybe it's you know, bringing Les Kiss in now feels like the right time um to change that. I think what they desperately need to do is similar to Argentina, uh, is follow that South African model of establishing those relationships with where their players are. So you know, the fact that they haven't been able to use Wolf Skelton in every game, for example, is is a massive problem. The fact that they're not going to have a lot of their players this weekend, yeah, um, is a problem. They need to they need to find a way to get around that. Um, maybe World Rugby needs to probably step in here about games outside international windows and player availability, etc.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

Um considering each of these games counts towards world rankings, it does feel a little bit harsh to some nations than others, you could say.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

It's yeah, it's it's just imbalanced, isn't it? Uh which is uh something you know that they need to get their heads around. But you know, obviously the bigger question is making money, so that's what that's what the focus is on this. Um but uh it's interesting because there's a lot of really good. I mean, some of these players I've really enjoyed watching Jorgensen, you know, the boy from Sheffield genuinely announced himself at the world stage this year, I think, for me. Really good. Lenikitao and Sualiti look a really good centre partnership, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Definitely one to build around, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

Yeah. Uh Angus Bell, loose head, I think's right up there with everyone else. I think Williams and Frost and Hooper are all really good locks. Valentini's still brilliant, McWright looks one of the best loose uh Lucies in the in the world at seven. I think Harry Wilson's led the team brilliantly. I think he's really, really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:48

Um are we just saying it's that out and out star at 10 is what they're missing.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

They said look, they've got Carter Gordon back from the LRL now, and they need to build the build the team around that. I think you just have to go look, Carter Gordon's our guy. Um they need to get Will Skelton into that team.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

They just you just have to they're a different they're a different team when he's there. They are a different team, a different prospect.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

Every team would be, you know, no team wouldn't be improved by having Will Skelton's tired lock. Um they need to solve the Tupot issue at tight head. Can you get him to s to start consistently? Can you get him fit?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:24

Because that seems to be a problem. Um I think there's a question at nine for them. But um yeah, that look, there are questions there, and there's there's problems that Leskis is gonna have to solve. Some of them are systemic, some of them are playing playing pool. But this game in particular was just it just it just feels like a bit of a bridge too far at the moment for them. I think I think whatever whatever positives have come out of this year, I think they're just coming to the end of the road emotionally, uh, with the Wallabies jersey. Um feels like everything they've had to get up for with the with the Lions Tour and the Rugby Championship, this this just feels like the end of it for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

They need their Australian summer to come and refresh, recharge, start again in the new year.

Scotland Falter As Argentina Surge

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

Jump jump on the surfboard, you know, go put a go put a shrimp on the Barbie, you know. We said we weren't doing accents this week, Rory. No, this is one of my better ones. Um no, no, no. You just they just I think I think a few players need to reset, and I think they just need to make sure that Les Kiss is in post and ready to go with a clear plan next year. Because they're on the up just right now, they're not quite there, and they came up against an island side that's now warmed into their theme after disappointment in Chicago and just executed a game plan really well, yeah, ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh yes, I I think they were boosted by their the early part of the game really working for them, somehow managing to get the same move to work twice to score tries under the sticks. Um that usually doesn't happen at international level, but it allowed them to pull away, build confidence, and then a confident island is always very, very hard to stop. Uh and that's what we saw. Um should we touch briefly on Italy-South Africa?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

Yes, I haven't seen too much of this game, but I've seen bits and pieces. Um I guess there's there's one real talking point, which is another red card for South Africa and another win with 14 men.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

Yeah, so again, the exact literally the exact same scenario happened with Franco Masturt as did with Luddiaga the week before. Um it's almost comical that it happens two weeks in a row, almost the exact same scenario. Uh, and again, I guess this is part of your slight reservation, admitting that you have a little bit of uh agreement with South African fans that they feel like they're getting persecuted because it does feel odd that they seem to be on the end of these decisions week in, week out.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

Well, I don't I don't think either of them were full red cards, the Ludiago one or the Franco Mosto one. I don't particularly like the 20-minute red card, but that feels like maybe that's where these both landed, if at all. What's the point? This one, to be honest, even this one, I'm not even certain it should have been at that threshold. I don't know what your thoughts were, but from what I saw of it, I thought, is was it a red card? Really? It didn't look like he was doing anything violent.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

It didn't feel like a red card to me. I I maybe yellow. Um 20 20-minute red, an absolute max. Um but I think I think where we are, we are absolutely hamstrung by this current structure that refs have to go through when making a decision. And because they made the decision on the pitch that it was uh high level of danger in the tackle, and because there there was um an illegal tackle in the fact that it was a tackle without arms, they can't make any other decision other than a full red the way the laws are set out, because you start at that sanction because it was they they perceived it as a high level of danger, which is starting point red card. Because it was an illegal tackle by their books, you can't apply any mitigation. So the only decision you have once you've decided it was a high degree of danger and it was an illegal tackle, you have to give a full red card. My question mark is what is the per se how are they deciding that's a high level of danger? Because to me, it didn't look high level of danger to me either. Um but basically it's any any form of kind of forward momentum in a tackle, it seems, where you are upright and you're making contact with the head, they're perceiving as high level of danger. Which in a such a dynamic game that we love to watch and play seem like we're setting ourselves up to fail a little bit there.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:41

It just feels like the directive from World Robbie at the moment is overly pernicety. Um and look, I mean you could make maybe make or ask some questions around some of the tackling technique exuded by um.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:54

Yeah, or maybe South Africans just need to get better at tackling. Maybe that's the solution. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:59

I mean, maybe, but also I don't know, it some in some ways it's it feels like it's uh it's a just a bit of a running joke that it's always South Africa and their their fans are always you know perceiving such persecution in every every you know, just what they need more fuel to the fire. Annoyingly, it's it's it's annoying when it feels like they've got a point.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:25

Um yeah. Especially it's just annoying because they're really good and they're just going and still winning games, even though they got 14 players on the pitch convincingly. Uh that's the annoying thing, because normally when you get red cards all the time, you start losing games. But no, South Africa. Now there's jokes saying that Razi Erasmus is now just gonna name a 40 team 14 player team for the game up against Ireland because oh we're gonna be able to get it. Which would be good loss. It would be funny if he did that, but it's yeah, it's uh it's not the best image, and it just plays into this kind of frustration with everything going on with the bunker system, TMO interventions, referees kind of being centre of attention, the laws being a bit prescriptive. It's not the best look. I and I think maybe it's more off-putting to those of us who've been watching rugby for some time, because like we're in this world now where there's it almost feels like too much is going on in that space. Maybe to a neutral, maybe it's exciting, maybe it's drama, maybe it's theatre.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:26

But it is how how can watching a referee look at a big screen for five minutes be exciting or drama or something. People like gogglebox, Rory. You think this is rugby goggle box?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:34

This is rugby goggle box, and we're gonna be. But it's a shame because for a little while Italy were putting pressure on South Africa in that game. Obviously, South Africa pulled away as they do uh later on in the game, but Italy really stuck it to them and they they gave them a bit of a fright. If you uh if you just watch or just look at the the ticker tape of the subs that Erasmus made in that first half after the red card, you can tell that that's he was worried because Italy were putting problems on them and he was just tinkering with that squad to no end. I think he did about four or five substitutions in the first half, which is unheard of.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Yeah, but also you can see that in some ways this game was was an opportunity for him to assess some of his other some of his wider squad. Yeah, yeah. Um and maybe he answered some questions on that, uh, particularly in the pack, but I would you know, I I I'm glad that Italy were able to put some pressure on and make an impact on this game. Um I would say against the South African second choice 15 against 14 men, that Italian side should be winning. Yeah. Ultimately. If that if if that Italian side is going where we think it is, they should be winning.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:05

Yeah, yeah, you're probably right. You're probably right. Uh uh and let's touch on France Fiji. Again, uh just another game that fails to I I've I've I've not seen much of this game, but I it didn't feel like uh France. Something's going on in France.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:25

Yeah, I think something's going on in France. Um a shout out to Charles Olivon becoming the highest scoring forward in France. Um I think Fiji really showed up in this one and put put France under real pressure and really um proved that they are you know backing up the performance against England to say that they're maybe they're not necessarily quite there, but they are pushing towards that level. Yeah, um, and they're gonna they will give plenty of teams a fright. I think you know everyone now has to be aware that you cannot turn up to Fiji with anything less than 100% because it they will put you under pressure. Um France though, I mean it's a strong France side, yeah. They can't say they put out a mix pretty much full strength, realistically. If you look through it, I mean Stepont's still injured, but they started Luku. Uh Ramos, Peno, Deporter, who's got two, so good for him. Brassi, Bia Bore, Intermat Luku. It's a back line you'd want generally.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:23

Um think to to run be run that close by Fiji.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:29

Something's not quite clicking, it seems. Uh I don't know what it is. I'm not close enough to French rugby to be able to put my finger on it, but it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

All I would ask is Gaultier's been there a long time. Are they getting close to needing a new voice?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

Well, I I often say that uh you may have the best coach in the world, but you do get to a point where new ideas are needed and new voices are needed, and maybe France are at that point, who knows? Um answers on a postcard. Um, because yeah, um it does this doesn't quite feel like the France we are used to seeing. Something feels off to me. If anything, it's it's kind of like the France we were used to seeing with how hot and cold they're being.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

Um well this this is the thing, you know, if if France are starting to regress back to where they were, say pre-2019, you know, that's that would be a real shame for what is uh potentially the premier rugby nation if they wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

Well, it'd be criminal considering the state of the domestic game. Like they've they've got they have got the premier domestic competition, let's face it. Um so it would be criminal for their national team to take a step back and not be taking advantage of that.

unknown 1:29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:38

Uh but yeah, that's so that rounds up the week three of the Autumn Internationals. Uh a nice little cancer through all those games there. We'll do our predictions now, Rory, for week four of the Autumn Internationals. Uh and it kicks off with uh Wales up against New Zealand. Uh I can't see anything other than a certain result. Here, what result can you see coming?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:02

New Zealand by 25 points at least.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Yeah. New Zealand at a canter for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:08

To be honest, if Wales keep this within 20, that's that's akin to a victory. That's a win. That's a win if Wales do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:14

Uh Ireland versus South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:20

I am very excited for this one. I think I think South Africa is gonna win.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:26

Yeah, I I think you're a fool to bet against South Africa at this stage in world rugby. They're just a step above everyone. I think South Africa win by five points. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. France versus Australia.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:41

I'd I'd love for the Wallabies to come away from this tour with a win just to take home with them, but I don't think it's gonna come this week against France, despite the problems over Le Pond. I think France will win this reasonably comfortable 10-15 points.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:53

Yeah, I think I think I think this is two sides probably not at their best, and I think France probably do come away with this one. I think man for man they're stronger across the pitch. Yeah, yeah. And like they will want to finish this campaign on a high for their fans, so and they'll probably see this as the one to kind of say, look, we're not don't roll, don't write us off. Uh so yeah, I agree. France, uh Italy-Chile rounding off Saturday. Um could be could be a very fun match.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:20

I mean, Italy, I think, will win probably by 15-20 points, but it could be quite a fun match to watch Chile play some lovely rugby.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:26

Yeah, I hope it'll be it'll be a good way to see where Chile are at at the moment because we've not really seen them um this uh this window. Uh and another game we get to see a team that we've not seen much of Scotland versus Tonga.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:38

Yeah, um I'd love to I'd love to be able to back Tonga on this one because it'd be very funny if they went and beat Scotland as well. But um I think Scotland will do a job on them and probably win by 20-30 points.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:48

Yeah, Gregor Townsend has been very smart there to put a banker in at the end to make sure that his job's safe for another six months. Yeah, and then the uh the chance for Argentina to seek revenge for the summer tour up against England at Twickenham. I'm excited for this game.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

I'm excited for this one. I think I think England are gonna do the clean sweep forward, and I think they're gonna win this one by ten points. Yeah, I think as much as we've I've praised Argentina, but I think England are gonna do this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:16

I I think England may become like Argentina's bogey team. I just I've just got to see, I I just feel like England England does have this game that they don't quite have an answer to, and I think England's defence almost shuts down the way Argentina play most of the time. And I I we saw it a lot in the summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:35

They just didn't seem to have the answer to his defence.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:40

So I yeah, I agree. As much as I've tried in all these weeks to try and have at least one that I disagree with your Nori, I can't go against England. I think England win this one as well. Uh so yeah, so that's that's week four. We'll uh we'll reconvene next week and see how we do. Um, I think we're doing pretty well on the predictions. Um I don't think we did too far.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:57

We did think Australia would win this week, which wasn't very good from us.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:00

Uh no, but hey, we can't always be right. We're an honest pod. Sorry for being optimists with such honest, honest just honest podcasters. But yeah, that's it for this week, Rory. A great week for England. It's been a lovely week for England. Uh, hopefully it continues. If you if you would have asked me at the start of the Autos International was that England would England go four from four, I would have said I'll be happy with three from four. Now all I want is four from four. Four from four. Four from the grand slam. Give it to us. Uh, any final thoughts before I play the jingle, Rory?

Ireland Punish Australia’s Fatigue

SPEAKER_00 1:33:32

Um I would like to apologize to um my uh in-laws for any comments I've made about Wales this week. And to Scotland, I want to apologize for absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

We be Ruxables and Oval Bulls. Hope you've enjoyed listening. We'll be back again next week. If you've enjoyed listening, remember to like, subscribe, follow, and all those other fun things. And we'll be back again. Ta!

unknown 1:33:57

Ta