S2 Ep 04 - Red Roses Bloom, Prem Rugby Booms

A world title in one hand, a battered match ball in the other—this week swings from the Red Roses’ crowning moment to a wild Premiership opening round that had big hits, bigger scrums, and even bigger talking points. We start with England’s blueprint against Canada: ruthless ruck denial, set-piece authority, and a calm response to early pressure. From Ellie Kildunne’s momentum-shifting finish to Alcroft, Matthews, and Botterman setting the tone, we unpack why this run felt inevitable—and why the real test is what comes next. Legacy isn’t a slogan; it’s participation spikes, diverse role models, and clubs telling the stories that bring new families through the gate.

Then it’s straight into Round One. Sale outmuscled Gloucester and let George Ford play chess. Saracens were cold-blooded with Farrell back steering and a wonder-try from Noah Calouri . Bath? Same juggernaut energy: a front-row scoring spree and Max Ojomoh flashing playmaking range at 10, while we weigh Arundell’s electricity against the work-ons he’ll need to start every week. At the Stoop, Quins raced ahead but couldn’t hold the dam. At Franklin’s Gardens, Saints shredded Chiefs in the first half before coughing momentum away—cue Feyi-Waboso and Brown-Bampoe lighting up broken field. We also take a hard look at the 20-minute red card: one incident screamed full red, another felt like a yellow, and both landed in the same bucket. That’s a calibration problem worth fixing.

Bristol–Leicester brought peak chaos: stunning Bears attack, brutal injuries to key backs, and hints that Orlando Bailey can change how Tigers play. Along the way, we talk pacing fixes (pause the clock at scrum call), what actually feels new around the league (a real digital pulse, club personality, fan buzz), and we close with crisp Round Two picks. If you love women’s rugby, set-piece battles, and a league finding its swagger, this one’s for you. Listen, subscribe, and drop us your bold call for next week—who stops Bath at the Rec?

🎧 Thanks for tuning in to the Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls Podcast!

📲 Stay connected with us on social media for behind-the-scenes content, hot takes, and episode updates:

• Instagram: @rucksmaulsovalballs
• Twitter/X: @RMOB_Rugby
• TikTok: @rmob_rugby
• YouTube: Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls Podcast

📬 Got a question, comment, or just want to rant about your club’s form?
Email us at: RucksMaulsOvalBalls@outlook.com

Transcript

Groggy hellos and missed week apology

SPEAKER_00 0:17

The slightly lower Vim. Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener if you've got enough Vim.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hi listeners, I um yes, I'm operating on uh between sixty and seventy percent of Vim today, stinking cold, but you know, I power through it. By by the power of podcasts, I uh I'm still here.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Well, by the power of podcasts I've compelled you to record, even though I must start off with an apology to the listener. Basically, we missed last week's episode where we would have been able to talk all things women's rugby world cup semi-finals, because I was off gallivanting around uh the Dalmatian areas of Croatia in the lovely, lovely coastal city of Split on a stagdo, and was in no fit shape or place to be recording a podcast. So for that listener, I apologize you have gone an extra week without us assaulting your ears. But alas, we are back, and Rory, being the obviously more committed one of the two of us, is uh is conquering a stinking cold to provide some audible rugby gold for you all. So hopefully this will make up this hopefully this podcast will make up for our lack of podcast last week.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Uh with any luck, my famously dulcet tones will be even more dulcet this week because I have uh less you know vocal cords.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

It does feel like you're already an octave lower, which is a treat for us all. Uh so obviously it's it's been a couple of weeks, Rory. Is there anything you want to feed back on? How how are the Westcliff Lions doing? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Uh on a personal basis, other than the cold, doing very well, getting back into the swing of things, back in the gym, getting quite fit, getting a bit stronger, getting ready to really rip into the season fully. Uh the Lions got their first win when it wanted in the camp.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Uh so some good signs there, some green shoots. Uh, first team still stomach a win, but lost to Colchester through a last minute penalty, um, which is heartbreaking, but Colchester are a pretty good bet to go up this season. So the fact that they were in that space where a last-minute penalty was what won it, some reasonably positive signs ahead. So we remain ever positive and hopeful. Um, and uh yeah, looking forward to getting back to the gables and uh getting another W under the lion's belts and getting that first W for the ones soon.

Club update: Westcliff Lions form check

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I'm sure it'll happen. I'm sure it'll happen. It's good to know because I think you spoke the uh the week before it was a it was a close fought uh match against Chelmsford, I believe I remember you saying. Correct. Uh so these these games are all going down to the wire. It's all it it it's it bodes well for a club newly promoted, um, showing that they are at the right level. In the mixer. That W will come, and I'm confident that uh we'll have more positive stories to tell of Westcliff firsts and seconds, Rory. I'm that I'm confident of that. Now, this podcast, we've been talking all summer about how we've had an absolute glorious summer of rugby, but there's been a crowning duel outside of the Lions that is really come to an end this weekend, but also the beginning of our bread and butter. So this podcast is dedicated to the Women's World Cup coming to a close and the commencing of what is our favourite competition, the Gallagher Prem. We're gonna start though talking about the Red Roses and the Women's World Cup. Does that sound like a lovely place to start to you, Rory?

Setting the agenda: Roses and Premiership

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Well, I think it's the only place to start, David, because uh we're world champions. We're world champions. We're world champions. I mean, what's not to love about it? England are world champions, and not just world champions, fully deserved all-conquering world champions. Unbeaten since the last World Cup final. It's it's it's an astounding record that John Mitchell and the girls have put together, um, culminating in genuinely a fantastic performance by what looked like and by all accounts was a fantastic atmosphere at the end of what has without doubt been a fantastic World Cup.

Red Roses’ title and legacy for women’s sport

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, yeah, I think absolutely. It's I I think it was the event that that tournament deserved. The match was great, it was a really, really good game of rugby. Uh, I th I feel both sides really brought absolutely uh 110% uh and really didn't leave anything out there, which is all you can ask for for a kind of a final spectacle. So I suppose one of the main questions, Rory, before we get into the game is like, do you think there will be a lasting legacy from this tournament? And what do you think that looks like?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Well, I think there's two there's two parts to it, right? I think first first and foremost, between this World Cup, uh the Euros and the football, and the continued success of the Lionesses, I think what what you can almost take as red is that women's sport is supported and championed in this country. Um not just in England but around the whole UK, but particularly in England in this case. So from that point of view, I think the legacy is secure because women's sport is only on the up and everyone, everyone has already got behind it. You know, that train has left the station.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I think the other aspect of it, and maybe the lesser talked about aspect of this, is when the men's team won the World Cup in 2003, um, and when the women have won the World Cup in the past in uh 1994 and 2014, uh, we have been guilty of wasting that opportunity. I'm pretty confident, as of right now, that those lessons have been learned, and no one is going to take for granted that success will come naturally after success, and you have to work to build upon it. I think you've seen that in on the men's side of the game, that they know they've they've seen that they have to put more groundwork to create success, and you're starting to see those green shoots come through. Yeah. On the back of this World Cup win, in terms of its cultural significance, in terms of what it's going to do for women's participation, but also youth, just youth participation, you know, young girls and boys were really well represented in in this whole World Cup. I think, I mean, to an extent I hope, but I'm I'm confident that actually this is not an opportunity that's gonna be wasted because this type of thing doesn't come around nearly enough uh for for English teams. Um, and I I do believe that they're gonna take this opportunity to really build upon it and build a proper legacy off the back of it in women's sport, in women's rugby, and in the game in general.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

I I completely, completely agree with that assessment, Rory. I think hit the nail on the head. I I think the thing for me that I'm really intrigued to look back on, say, in a year's time, it would be to see if there is a quantifiable difference in kind of youth participation. So I do think that's where the legacy will be. There may well be young girls and boys out there who want to be the next Ellie Kildun, the next Meg Jones, the next Hannah Botterman. Like and it's absolutely fine if a young boy wants to be inspired by a red rose, vice versa. We would like to see young girls inspired by male or female rugby players. Like, that doesn't matter. It's the fact they're inspired to go to their local club, go grassroots rugby, and see if they just want to give it a try themselves. I think I'm I'm hoping that will be something that we can look back on and say this was a real, almost watershed moment that is just kind of led to a step change in maybe grassroots participation at youth level. That's what I'm hoping.

Representation, role models, and participation

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Well, I think one of the big strengths of this England team is it's it's not just a um it's not just like a classic stereotype of what an England rugby team looks like, you know, middle class, male, home counties kind of thing. You know, that is a team that represents so many different parts of the country and so many different, you know, every type of person, but particularly girls, can see themselves within that team, whether it's you know Hannah Bottoman, you know, West Country girl, um, you know, from the LGBTQ community, but absolutely one of the players of the tournament. Kabea from South London, player of the match at the weekend, well deserved. You know, you've got uh Meg Jones, who born and raised in Cardiff, but then trod her own path, got herself to Hartbury and went from there to represent England. You know, you've got likes of Ellie Kildunn and Jess Breach who are becoming these sort of wider cultural icons. You know, you've got people like Mo Hunt from Deep in the Forest of Dean, you know, very unfashionable part of the world, but going on then from there to be not just a local hero but a national hero and a and a you know an international icon in the game. You know, you've got the likes of Abbey Ward, yeah, you know, there after the game, having given birth between the World Cups and then sacrificing to them to become a world champion off the back of uh a disappointing loss in the last World Cup. You know, the stories of these players is are they not just inspiring, they're representative. You know, everyone can see themselves in these players, and that's it's those type of narratives that you can you can build upon to to draw people into the game. Yeah. You know, if you can't use someone like Sophie Kabea to to build a narrative for why, you know, young girls from you know, maybe not traditional uh stereotypical backgrounds in rugby might can go out and play the game in areas like South Croydon. You know, you're not doing your job.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

That's that is that is a sellable narrative that people can can get behind. So I think I think this is a sea change moment as much as anything. You know, I I I think you can see in the wider media sphere that there's a different kind of uh output from rugby at the moment. There's a different there's a different feel to it, there's a lot of different things being done on both sides of the men's and women's games, and it feels like this is something they're really taking that you know they're grabbing hold of this opportunity. Um which you know, and I hope they I hope they really make a make a good fist of it because it's a team that deserves to leave a legacy, but I think it feels like that's that's what they're doing.

Final analysis: England v Canada tactical breakdown

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Completely agree. Um, so on the match itself, Rory, uh really, really good contest. Yeah what were your what were your takeaways from that that game as a as a sporting spectacle?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yeah, I think as a as a game itself, it it had some really really interesting threads to it, right? I mean Canada obviously started off really well, um profiting off probably some maybe some England nerves, uh you know, throwing a a line out over the top and losing it, and uh then uh Hokan Rochester going into the corner and getting them off to a good start. And at that point you thought, oh no, here it goes again. Um but I thought what England did, they stuck really well to the principles that have got them there. Yeah, their defence was phenomenal throughout the match. Um, what they really nullified was you know, Canada's two great strengths are going wide and going through the fringes. They got no change from the fringes in this game. They had to they had to go wide way earlier than they normally would. And although they did manage to get round England a few times, actually nowhere near as often or nowhere near as effectively as they have done against anyone else. Obviously, we didn't get the chance to talk about the New Zealand game last week, but you know, they they executed that game plan against the Blackferns phenomenally in in both areas, through the fringes and out wide. Um, and they just never got that opportunity really in this match. Um, I thought the likes of Talling and Ward, Zoe All Croft. I mean, geez, as she put some hits in. Yeah, Cabaya obviously just everywhere in defence as she always is, Meg Jones as per just slotting. Um it's I think um I think what Inga did really, really well was they identified that the actual the main threat in the Canada attack, as good as their wingers are and they are fantastic, as Hogan Rochester proved, actually you nullify a lot of their threat if you just stop Canada getting that kind of go forward game through the fringes, and they just stopped it at source every time.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah, well their greatest weapon that's kind of been highly talked about elsewhere is like their their ruck speed and how quickly they get that ball out. How many turnovers did Hannah Bottomman get? Lost count, lost count. And it's just absolutely perfect game plan to strangle and stop that weapon becoming a thing. I think there was a couple of moments where I was like, it's almost like Canada, it's like the first time they'd hit that sort of brick wall before, and it's like, oh, it's not working. This this worked against the Black Ferns, this worked in the group stage, but for England they they absolutely nullified that weapon, and I think that that went a huge way to kind of giving the Red Roses that route back into the game when they lost went down a try early doors and really started to impose themselves, and I think a lot of it was defensively led.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, well, I think you know, for both teams, this was the first time that either teams come up against a pack that no one was quite sure who was going to come out on top. Yeah, and the England pack absolutely took the mantle in this game. Um, you know, as de goody as de goody what can you know can be and is, and obviously she you know she set up Hogan Rochester's try. She wasn't de good enough to stop Zoe Allcroft or Alex Matthews, sort of you know, just just overpowering them.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Zoe DeAlcroft and Alex De Matthews.

Can England stay unbeaten and what’s next

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and you know, I mean it culminated with obviously um Kokane went over on a mall about you know 18 minutes in, but uh Alex Matthews try came from a dominant scrum. You know, the just the the the nuts and bolts of what make traditionally good England teams tick was were all there and just functioned so well throughout the match. Yeah um you you can't um you can't overstate how hard it is to get those set pieces as slick as they did, particularly in such a pressurised situation. And it's you know it's they score what two mall tries, but they've they interrupted and they stole Canada malls on their own goal line and turned it over, you know. They've they absolutely dominated that area of the pitch, and you know, any team that's getting dominated in that area is left with just hoping for worldly inputs from from out of nowhere, and ultimately they didn't get that because that came from Ellie Kill Dunn with her try.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Well, I I wanted to touch on that. How on earth did she score that try? I I watch him, I want, how on earth she done that? Because as quick as she is, yeah, yeah, it doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

As quick as she is, she is so powerful, her upper body strength is so powerful that the Canada players went marginally too high on her, and she just shrugged him off. And once she's got an inch of space, she's gone.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

It was like it was like five or six missed tackles, I swear. It was uh very impressive stuff. And I think that that that definitely that was a turn way obviously was a turning point because that was England's kind of first response to Canada's uh opening cry. But I feel like that that set the tone a little bit because I think very right to highlight um the pack, the loose forwards in particular, who I thought were fantastic. I also think we spoke about Tatiana Hurd um previously, perhaps being uh the less glamorous part of the Meg Jones Tatiana Heard partnership, but I thought she had probably her best game of the tournament.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

100%. Yeah. I mean, we you know, I think it it wouldn't be unfair to say she's been inconsistent through this tournament, and I think not entirely down entirely down to her, obviously interrupted by Polly Herson not playing at 10, which which does make a difference when you're used to a certain fly half and you have to change it, you know, late on in the process. But you know, she's probably been the quietest member of that back line, but she absolutely saved her biggest performance for last. I mean, the take off the back of the line out and just the go forward she gave.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Lovely. You don't see that very often in the women's game, and I loved it. It was a great piece of planning, good game planning, uh, and executed very well.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

It's executing high skill manoeuvres in the most pressurized environment. You know, you cannot overstate how hard it is to execute something like that ever, let alone in a World Cup final.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, and the thing I really liked about that is because they they put up that back pod, acting like they were going to take it. So it it dragged in the back of the line out's defenders. And it was obviously good, and it's just yeah, it's it's such clever, it's probably clever identification from John Mitchell and the coaching team. I think it just shows that not just the players but the coaches in that setup, they are so on to a winner. Um question begs now, what next? Well can they can they make the World Cup cycle again unbeaten?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I th I think I mean that they're genuinely capable of it. I don't think they will, because I think everyone else is gonna step up their game. You know, you've seen the likes of Australia stepping up massively in this tournament, South Africa stepping up.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Ireland are getting better.

Premiership returns: format for match rundowns

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Ireland stepping up and starting to get some players back. You know, I don't think the France team are gonna get any worse. Um, you know, New Zealand are not gonna rest on their laurels. Hopefully, Canada can get some funding to keep developing this squad. Yeah, um, hopefully the US come back into it. Yeah, I don't see them going the whole next world World Cup cycle unbeaten, but you know, it's it's still a relatively young team. You know, there's not that you know who's who are the players that might not make the next World Cup, you know, maybe Mo Hunt.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, generally the the ones in the squad who were in that position weren't the starters, uh I think it's fair to say. So a lot of them may have another World Cup in them, which is a scary thought for the rest of the women's rugby world.

Sale v Gloucester: power, Ford, and concern

SPEAKER_01 18:28

It is the the challenge really now for this this side, you know, they have thrown down the gauntlet to the rest of the world. This is what creates successful women's rugby teams. This kind of investment, this kind of um effort is what really creates successful women's rugby teams. The challenge for them is how can they evolve, how can they improve, you know, how can they become better than they are now? Because that's what the really great dynasties do. You know, that's what you know, that New Zealand men's side of 2009, 2013 did. That's what the South Africa side from uh 2017 to what to now, you know, they're still doing. You know, it's it's not resting on your laurels and assuming you'll always be great, it's how do we become even better than we are now?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah, and it's how how do you maintain that evolution and improvement over time? And thus, yeah, as you say, don't rest on your laurels, don't accept your standards as they are now as being the acceptable ones, keep pushing yourself. But yeah, I I I think all we can say from our point of view is that it's been such a great tournament. I'm so so glad that the Red Roses brought home the trophy. Um, fully warranted, fully deserved, caps off what's been just an incredible campaign from that side over these last few years. Um, so yeah, I long live the Red Roses and the success that they've gone, they've they've they've they've gathered, and really hope there is a lasting legacy to it. Because I, as you say, I I really hope that was a sea change moment where this could be the catalyst that really turns the tide around grassroots rugby playing numbers, inspires a whole generation of people who want to pick up that egg-shaped ball and get involved. So I've yeah, I've I feel like what a torment, what an occasion. I have nothing but positives to say about it. Do you have any other final thoughts on the Women's World Cup before we move on to more domestic issues?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

No, I think anyone who doubts the power of what this World Cup's done, go and listen to uh Portia Woodman talking after the their third place playoff against France and talking about you know the privilege of the number of people who came out to see them before the start of that match and what it felt to them and and what how well she spoke about the support of women's sport in England and the UK in general. You know, we're we're not uh blessed with international praise a lot of the time as a country.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

And this is one of the things that we can genuinely be proud of. And I really, you know, if you if you doubt the power of it, go and listen to to what she's she said.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

We we got it right, we got something right, Rory, and it feels good. We sure did. And I also before we move on, I think one of the most one of the best things that really put a smile on my face was looking at the faces of all those players coming out of that tunnel of the game. Because you could see the excitement, you could see the joy. You don't see it in the men's game so much. Uh it's all very serious, you don't see the personalities. And I think that's one of the most appealing things about women's rugby, and I hope that never leaves the sport because it's one of the unique selling points that really sets it apart. So, yeah, long may that continue. Um but, Rory, it's been a long summer. Brace yourselves, listeners, because the return of our nausea assessment of Gallagher Prem Rugby is back. Because the Gallagher Prem returned with round one this weekend, and uh there's a few things we can talk about here, I feel. So, what we're gonna do here, listener, is we're gonna run through all five games. We're gonna talk about each game, and we're gonna do an order of kickoff. So if you are a fan of a particular club, scroll through, find the club you want to do, or just listen to all of it. We're fine with that. But we're gonna start off with the Thursday night kickoff, a game close to Rory's heart, which I'm sure he is uh eager to talk about, maybe not eager, uh reluctant. Perhaps maybe that's why there's a lack of Vim. Um Thursday night, sale versus Gloucester.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Talk to me, Rory. Well, uh talking about this one is not gonna help the amount of Vim and Vim I've got it.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I should have done a Vim check.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, we're we're you know, Vim Vim is rapidly rapidly leaving. Um so you know, for any new listeners, I am an unapologetic Gloucester fan, and uh you will see that as a constant theme in this podcast. Get used to it, and uh I make no apologies for that. Um this was concerning as a performance as a Gloucester fan. Um absolutely outmuscled by sale, um, completely outmuscled in the pack, basically completely unable to implement the kind of attacking flair we saw from Gloucester last season. Yeah. Um, and just outthought in the second half, you know, by George Ford, who out thinks everyone, so that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

But he's a very clever player.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

You know, he he just completely nullified us. Um, and I came away from this game, you know, obviously disappointed having lost and having let sales get the bonus point, but particularly concerned about our prospects for the rest of the season based on that performance alone, because we looked lightweight up front. Um Ross Byrne was standing far too deep, yeah, and providing no threat. We got no attacking game going really, bar one very good try for Jack Clement.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Um I I'm concerned um at the moment. We no, we are missing we were missing a few. As you can see, you know, we were missing all of our um and most of our hookers. Yeah. We're missing Jack Mann at eight, who will make a big difference. He's a big man, but I'm not sure I can rest on those excuses too much off the back of this one because uh I thought we were poor and I I didn't see an obvious fix.

Newcastle v Saracens: red card debate and Farrell factor

SPEAKER_00 24:18

So do you want me to do a horrible job of kind of nailing coffin scenario? Because I'm tracking stats, you know me. Stat man Dave. Uh out of the ten clubs this weekend, Gloucester, bottom of the table in terms of meters carried. Uh you did come second in a place on the table, though. You had the second most missed tackles. Uh excellent. Uh your meters per carry, bottom of the table. Uh, what else? Penalties conceded, top of the table on that one. Um not a good day at the office. Uh bottom of the table for tries scored as well. Um not the best start. So if I think the difficulty I'm I have here is I do think we've talked about in the past how sale are historically quite slow starters. Yeah. Um I that isn't the sale I saw in round one. They did not.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

No, they looked they looked well thought out. They looked like they knew what they were doing. Um I mean, look, let's let's be frank, it wasn't a brilliant game all round.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Not the best start to the league, especially as the game started with a lack of comms between the refs, which I thought was a lovely way to start the game. Uh not great, but best image.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Uh and can we also just point out that the first sale try, how that isn't called a knock-on. I I I genuinely can't understand it. It's and you know it was a knock-on because the five times it happened later in the match, it was called a knock-on.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Well, and you know it's a knock-on because you just have to look at the faces of the players uh when it happens.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Yeah, Robux' guilty face was fairly obvious.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Um utterly bizarre call. That was yeah, that was a bizarre call. Uh, I think 95% of the rugby fan population will probably agree that was a knock-on. And it wasn't the only glaringly obvious mistake made by referees, but I don't want to start off the season poking too much blame at a referee.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Uh ultimately, this this was uh a chess match absolutely dominated by George Ford in that second half, just pinned us back, we've got no territory, couldn't get out of our own half at all, offered no threat whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Uh the sale defence was physical, it suffocated us. Their pack absolutely outmuscled Gloucester's. Um, you know, the the scrum was a problem, particularly on the loose head side, where Harry Bellamy, you know, who's got a good a bright future, but he was on baby and was shown up against a poker for journeys.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, because let's face it, he's what if everyone fit and well and present, he's what fourth? Fourth choice? So it kind of shows that you were you're kind of on the back foot from the get-go there. Um, which is a bit of a shame because I was looking forward to the Epoca Fajor Facabon kind of matchup, and I think that that difference in pack quality kind of not necessarily stole that from us, but it didn't did mean that it wasn't as much of a competition as it could have been.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

No, I mean ultimately Sale deserved this win absolutely comprehensively. I don't know that they necessarily deserved a bonus point try, but they got one, and that's the important thing from their perspective. And ultimately, you know, the thing is the fact that they've started the season with George Ford fit and playing is gonna be a massive boon to their chances of making the top four because his ability to control a game with that pack and the likes of Roebuck and Carpenter in the backfield who both look on fire, by the way. You know, yeah, Roebuck was a handful the whole game. Um bless you, Rory. Sorry. Um, you know, I I would say that off the back of that performance, Sale look like a difficult team to stop. I don't think they're gonna be the prettiest team to watch all season, but they are gonna be tough to stop.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah, I think that's I think that's a fair assessment. Um yeah, it's easy to do. Yeah, I I do wonder is this more evidence that the assumption we've kind of made that Gloucester will be able to continue the way they played last season from the get-go may take a bit more time. Because I think Ross Byrne clearly wasn't necessarily on the same game plan as say Anne Scumbo's last season towards the end of it, understandably, like we shouldn't expect that.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Um well Ross has just got to get he's gotta take it to the line, and admittedly, it would have been difficult in this match because there was no go forward. Yeah, you know, so it maybe this all just stems from losing the physical battle up front, yeah, because it so often does in the game.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

And I I wouldn't always be running that close, that flat on the line into Massy White anyway. So I don't blame him.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

No, absolutely, absolutely. Um, but you know, they got another chance this this weekend against possibly a less physical pack in Saints, so they might have might get some more change there, but well, I mean to be fair, there's there won't be many more physical than sale packs.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, we'll talk about them later. Um yeah, I I I think that performance has shown to me that sale don't write them off. Uh I think at home they are going to be very tough nuts to crack for anyone. And this may well just be a case case that Gloucester are just the unlucky side that other ones have to face them first off. Uh, and it may be it may be the picture, maybe a bit less doom and gloom for Gloucester fans going forward. It's always hard after one round. Um from a sale point of view, well that's that's let's actually from the fixture point of view, obviously, round one. Sometimes we see a few new faces. Were were there any new faces, new players that you think stood out to you? Uh I feel like it's probably a good thing to do for each fixture because there's quite a lot of new names and yeah, I look Venter was very good.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

He was everywhere, made made a huge amount of tackles, turnovers. He looked like he was going to. Exactly what we hoped he would this season. I thought Inard struggled, but you know, again, more of a product of the rest of that performance. But the real um the real star of the new signs was Jabulu. Yeah, so physical. Um he he's been getting the big talk up over the summer. There's a lot of quiet whispers as to what kind of player he's gonna be this season, and I think off the back of that performance, Jabulu is a man to keep an eye on for future England squads because he looks tailor-made for an England pack. Big, physical, square, all the nuts and bolts, but with enough explosive power that he's gonna be a handful against uh against defences. So yeah, so it's best sign of the week in that game, but for sure.

Social media needle and narrative-building

SPEAKER_00 30:51

A problem for sale, Cowandickey or Jabulu starting when Cowandicke is available. Well it's not a bad problem to have.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

It's not a bad problem to have, and actually, what you what you're actually probably solving for is the fact that last season they were probably having to leave Cowandickey on the pitch too long too often because the options behind him were less solid. They've actually got a genuine one-two option at hooker now. Yeah, so they can they can rest Cowandicky when they need to, because he's you know, he's getting up there in years, but they can also you know rotate within the game as well when they need to as well. So um I think it solves a problem they had last season as much as anything.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so that that game itself, let me just remind myself of the score. Sale 27, Gloucester 10. Sale 27, Gloucester 10. It's almost like it's imprinted in your brain, Rory. Um let's get back to what we used to do, Rory. We used to do a nice little summary of each game after our little chat. Let's get back to the good stuff. Um yeah, 27-10 to Sale Sharks, four tries for sale, Robuk, Jabulu, Carpenter, and Andrews getting the try and at the death. George Ford with a couple of kicks, cut a penalty, Gloucester, Jack Clement, Ross Byrne, 10 points, pointless second half as well, being up at half time.

unknown 32:16

Yeah.

Harlequins v Bath: forwards dominance and Arundell

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Uh not the best start. But hey, week one, shake off the cobwebs, you move on to next week where you take on the mighty Northampton Saints. But we move forward chronologically, because we like to we like to obey the uh the laws of time. And let's start off with the Newcastle Red Bulls Saracens game Friday night. Obviously, this is one of the trickier ones to uh analyse because it is the the one fixture that was picked out of the lot that wasn't going to be on TV. Uh but is there anything you've been able to draw out of this game that's uh perhaps a an incident that took place that was an evidence of a change to some of the rules in the league that maybe we can talk about and you know maybe something that's as slightly of the red colour that might be worth talking about?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah, we I think we should address this. But I mean, first and foremost, it's it's the proper start of a new era uh up in the northeast, sold out Kingston Park, um over 10,000 there for the first time since Danny Sepriani took wasps there. So that's so long ago I've forgotten, you know, as a as a defunct team and a retired player. So um a genuine, uh a genuine special moment for Newcastle. And look, let's get it out of the way. Ultimately outclassed by an extremely powerful and extremely efficient Owen Farrell-led Saracen side who did pretty much everything you'd expect of them. They defended Newcastle out of the match, they were so physical, particularly in the middle of the park. Just didn't give them an inch. Um, Nick Tompkins had one of the best games I've seen him have in a few years. Tom Willis was ubiquitous. Um Van Zale just ran the show, you know. Andy On Yama Christi back back starting, looking really, really good. Really good to see him back in the team. Um, you know, ultimately, just a very, very good Saracen's performance all round, and you know, congratulations to them for getting the bonus point win. However, in the first minute, Nathan Mitchelow, who is a player I really like, I liked him, and I think he's got a really bright future, did one of the most ridiculous spear tackles I've seen in well, ever, really. You know, I've rarely seen a worse spear tackle. Um picking George Miguel up, tipping him vertical, and driving him in on effectively the top of his head.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Um now this isn't this isn't a moral judgment against Mishlow. I don't, you know, it's not that to say I think he's a dirty player or or anything like that, but it is the reddest of red cards I've seen for some time. And it's it's an early example. There's two instances this weekend at both ends of the spectrum. And we'll talk about the other incident later on. But the the other incident was I think at best a yellow. This one was the reddest of red cards, but both end up being 20-minute red cards. And ultimately, for something as ludicrous as as that action, that should have been down to 14 for the rest of the match, which changes the complexion of the game.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah, absolutely. I I did think that would be your position. Uh I agree. But I am worried that refs will use this 20-minute red card as the go-to now. Um I I don't think we see a permanent red card for anything unless someone does something really stupid, like biting, punching, sorts of stuff like that. I think anything on the pitch now, like a blatantly obvious full vertical tip spear tackle, that's 20-minute red.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Well, look, I mean you've you've made two good examples of things, you know. We've seen bites in the Women's World Cup. You know, we know we know the punches are out of the game now. You only get a little bit of pushing and shove it. Of all of the three actions there, a vertical spear tackle, a bite, and a punch. Only one of those is likely to end on a rugby pitch end up with you with career or life-threatening injuries, and it's a vertical spear tackle. That for me, of the three things, that's the worst bit. So look, I say this. I'm not I this isn't an opportunity for me just to dig out Nathan Michel, who again I really like as a player, and I think he's got a really bright future.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

I tipped him to get to be breakthrough player of the year.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Like, yeah, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

I like him as a player, but that moment head fart.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, and you know, to be honest, he's gonna cop a he should cop a ban for that one. I assume he's gonna cop a significant one. Um, because it's it was ludicrous, um, you know, and and unnecessary in every example that you know they were driving the player back, he didn't need to do it. There was no need to to to tackle in that manner, and to be honest, the fact that it didn't result in Saracen's being down to 14 for the rest of the game, I think, devalues the impact of what he did, um, which I think is worthy of a permanent dead.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Um I know I knew we were gonna get a moment like this in this season. I wasn't expecting it to happen in the first minute of the game. Um of the first round. So yeah, it's not it's not put that new rule in its best light, because I think the first use of it has been an incorrect use of the 20-minute red card, which is a real shame. Um but we should talk about some more positive things that in the game.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Talk positives because we are a positive podcast. That is a that is a bit of us. So let's let's move away from the from the negative to some of the some of the positives here. Um I I'm gonna say it's great to see Owen Farrell back out there, yeah doing Owen Farrell things, just physical dominant, controlled the game, kicked his goals. He got a broken nose so early in the game, it was fantastic. Um, I just great to see him, great to see him out there and and just he's just a presence on the field, isn't he? You know, there's an aura around Owen Farrell, and uh watching him on the pitch, I just thought, oh god, Saracens are probably gonna win the league.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

They're back. I think it's been really interesting to see how the Fergus, Burke, Owen Farrell at 12 combo works because I think there's potential there, there's real potential there for that to be really dangerous. And Nick Tompkins outside him, it's almost like re-energized. Last year, I think Nick Tompkins would admit it wasn't his best season. He looked like a man possessed, he topped the turnout, like his turn, like his ability at the breakdown. He's like another back thrower out there. Um it was good to see from a Saraton's perspective that um yeah, there's a there's a bit of well Vim about them again that I thought they kind of lost a little bit last season, and that probably comes with having someone like Owen Farrell back in the dressing room.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

It's it's the dem I think it's the demands that he puts on players around him to support. People talk about this a lot with Owen Farrell, and you just saw everyone's performance ratchet up for a season.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, and let's forget the number of young players in that squad now, the impact he could have on their careers at this early stage. Um that's an intangible that we'll never be able to measure, but could be huge.

Saints v Chiefs: a real game of two halves

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah, I mean it's no coincidence that Saracens have formed the bulk of England squads over the last decade. And it's not because man for man every player has been better than every other option that's been touted. It's that the intensity that they bring to matches has just been different for most of that time period, you know, and that comes from the likes of Owen Farrell, the likes of Maro Atoje, the likes of Jamie George, yeah, who bring a level of intensity to everything they do on the pitch that is intangible. And I think the likes of you know Shotoke, uh, you know, Michelot, obviously, when he comes back from whatever ban he gets, you know, the young backs they've got out there, Noah Calorey, who let's talk about his try for a second.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Just knew it would happen. We've been talking about him for so long. He's finally got on the pitch at prem prem rugby, and then he gets his viral moment.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

I mean, to to get your debut try with a volley and then an acrobatic catch a la NBA.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

It really just was a perfect moment to display that unique skill set he's got, which is his vertical leap in the air, which I've not seen a player at senior men's level seem to be able to reach the heights he's able to. Like you have to this is a 18-19-year-old kid that's six foot five, quick as a quick as a whippet, and has a leap on him like an NBA player. It's very, very exciting if I was a side.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

But also the skills, yeah, and the skills and the wherewithal to pull out a volley minutes into your debut.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it and it come off uh it's it's yeah, fantastic. Um great moment for him. Uh obviously, there was Charlie Bracken as well. Brandon Jackson looks like he's starting to really forge a path into that squad. We talked about this past Saracens have a real problem in their hands, one of those good problems where they're gonna have too many players for so many positions, but that's probably by design. Newcastle-wise, will they come away from this feeling like missed opportunity or just a harsh realisation that this this fairy stale start, fairy tale start to the season, like behind the scenes, has been great, but reality will quite start to hit hard on the pitch because it's it's not everyone's gonna roll over for them and make them have this kind of miraculous season that everyone maybe might have got excited about.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Yeah, I I mean I'd I wouldn't have I wouldn't call it uh thumping that back down to earth because I don't think Steve Diamond is letting them get too ahead of themselves where they are. Ultimately, they looked undercooked at this match because they've they haven't really had a preseason, they've had one cut match, yeah. You know, and you could tell you could tell they were undercooked because the line out was shaky, would be kind.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Failed a lot of the time, realistically. The scrum was very shaky, um, and some of their continuity at times left them. That being said, there were some they got a lot of opportunities down in the Saries half. They put a lot of pressure on Saracens and created good opportunities in red zones. They didn't take them, which was a Achilles hinn of theirs last season, but they are still creating opportunities to build pressure, so that is something to build upon. Uh I thought, is it Butter Chamberlain?

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah, considering he landed like three days before that game and he was straight into the game, very impressive. Tailor made. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah, I thought he looked tailor-made. Um, I thought uh Brett Conan at 10 was superb, as he often is, but I thought he was really, really good. And with a player like that at 10, you can build around them.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Uh, you know, Alex Hurl, really good game, scored a very nice try, but had a really good all-round game. Clark, great endeavour. Uh Arnold, Gordon, Neiled, all good. You know, Maffey came as advertised.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah, very physical.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

He did all the things um you wanted from him. Uh Usher, I thought is continuing his upward trajectory. Um ultimately, it's it's clearly a team that has hasn't had enough time together, and they've got some players still to drip feedback into the squads over the course of the next couple of months.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

I'm very interested to see how they go when Benitez Cruz joins them.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Benitez Cruz, yeah, uh Tom Christie. Yeah, yeah. So I think I think what what you're saying with Newcastle is there is more to come from that team, and I do believe you'll see it. But at the moment, I think they've got a a rough adjustment period over the next couple of months whilst they assimilate and probably concentrate more on off-pitch matters as much as anything.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Yeah, I suppose it's a little bit of stabilizing, a little bit of just getting used to this new world that they're in. Uh, I'm just looking forward to watching this Red Bull journey develop over the next 12-28 months because I think it's gonna be really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

It's such a good story, it's such a good narrative for the league, and you know, you can just see the mood about the place, regardless of results. There was excitement behind that team, there were there was a fan base that was genuinely excited to watch that team that were getting excited when happened. Um so you know, that there's there's an intangible thing around uh a buzz around a club that doesn't necessarily correlate with results all the time. Sometimes there's just a buzz around a club, and it feels like Newcastle have got that, and I just think they will reap the rewards of it eventually. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

And let's put it into context. When Saracens last played Newcastle, they put 75 points on them. This time around, yes, they scored 39 points, uh, but it felt like a much more much more of a competition, and it was something that um there is there's there's shoots to build on for Steve Diamond. Uh and thankfully I I think there's there was enough there for that record crowd to come back again for the next home game, I hope. Uh I my my biggest worry is that if they don't get the results that people like perhaps these shorter term fans that may be turning up for the first time if they if they keep losing, I'd hate for them to lose that momentum. I don't I don't think I think there'll be enough of a show put on to keep people interested, but I just I I I hope that's not an issue for them.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

I d I look, it's it's things just have to trend upwards, but it'll never be a straight line. There will be dips and you know troughs in this in this journey for Newcastle, but I think it's gonna trend upwards. Um what did you think of the uh post-match Saracen uh crushing the Red Bull can?

Scrum time drain, cards, and fixing flow

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah, I've quite liked it. Red Bull turns out doesn't give you wins. Um I don't mind it's a it's it's a little bit football-y, but I don't mind it because I think this is something the league needs. It needs a little bit of light-hearted, less serious banter, for want of a better word, between the clubs. And some of the some of the admins for these teams do some really, really good stuff. I thought it was quite clever. Some people thought it was a bit tacky. I can see their point of view, but let's have a let's look at the bigger picture. It got people talking, it's focusing on something new that's in the league, it's setting up perhaps another st another season for Saracens to be the enemies and the villains. Uh, and I think they enjoy that role, so let's embrace it. I it would be nice to see some of the other clubs do similar sort of stuff, I think.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

I agree, I agree. I think they're playing up to their role. They released a um a video around being the original club of North London this week as well, yeah, which was uh you know, trying to place Saracen's part of the cultural cater of uh of North London. Um, and look, again, it's had mixed reception as these things often do, and it's you know, people have likened it to the kind of thing that Arsenal put out a lot of, but you know, Arsenal are a massive icon, and they're they're a that's a well-recognised club right now. I don't think it's a bad thing that they're trying it.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Well, look at look at team members in the Ryder Cup. They were saying Donald Trump were you watching on their victory. Like successful clubs know how to do it in a way I don't think it went over a line, I think it was fine. Uh it was funny. Make me laugh. Let's let's I I I don't want I hope the admin's not been fired um or been told to rein it in. I think carry it on. Do you have some kind of club?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

I I think I think this is a role they've decided they're gonna play this year, and I I think more power to them. And I actually hope other clubs do it as well because you know, I think Bristol have been doing a lot of this stuff really well in the last few years. You know, you can fully expect Newcastle to be doing different things like this. Yeah, yeah. Moving forwards, I think the other clubs should be um emulating. Maybe they don't have to you don't pick the same lane, you pick your own way of doing it. Yeah, but I think you know that is a that's a path that all clubs should be looking at.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah, so be interesting. So our encouragement to you, listener, keep an eye on all the clubs' social media accounts and see what they do post-game. Let's see if they pick a lane, let's see what route they take, uh, and if there's any other funny, just quite funny bits of a social media repartee that carries on. Because I I I don't mind it too much, I don't mind it. But the game itself ended 39-17 to Saracens in Kingston Park. Newcastle picking up a couple of tries from Alex Hurl and Freddie Clark with Brett Conan doing the kicking duties and Saracens tries for Jackson Ritz ries for Jackson Richards on Yarma Christie. Nick Tompkins picked up two, and the man of the hour, Noah Callory, getting his viral moment, which I just kind of knew he would, and Owen Farrell doing some good work off the T. Now, the other game on Friday night. We're talking Harlequins versus Bath. The champions versus the entertainers. Um it's an interesting one this game because Tale of Two Halves, kind of, let's say.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Well, I think we've gone too early with that particular cliche, David. No so um no, I was actually I actually went to this You were there, yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Tell tell me about your experience at the stoop.

Bristol v Leicester: brilliance, injuries, and depth

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Uh so look, you know, one thing you can say about Harlequins is they do put on a good show at home. You know, the atmosphere was really good. Uh another sellout, they just continue to sell out the stoop week on week. Um, a lot of bath fans there. A surprising number seem to have come out of the not coming from the west, coming from other bits of London, who seem to have dug out old bath shirts that they may not have worn for two years. So maybe a bit of a champion's bounce in terms of support. That happens, it does happen. Um the game itself. Uh, I mean, the Quinn Holoquin started like an absolute freight train at Nova, because speaking to Quinn's fans before the game, there was a pessimistic outlook on not just this game but this season. Uh and to start the way they did, I think probably a real bout of positivity amongst the fan base, even despite the result. Because they I think most people sort of expected them to get absolutely steamrolled as much, and they didn't really. Um Will Evans getting a hat trick but scoring two in the first ten minutes in in the right place at the right time, several several times. It's really good performance by him. Um Tyrone Green got his try right at the end, which is well deserved because he looked back to his best.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Yeah, it was interesting that the commentary team, because obviously I was watching from home rather than the stadium, they uh they made a point that he's now eligible for England. Uh, so that's a that's an interesting thing to discuss in the future. But yeah, I agree. He had a fantastic game for Harlequins.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Yeah, he was superb. Um, but realistically, uh, this was the tale of the bath pack and bath bench just being too ridiculously powerful in the end.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Yeah, so um nothing's changed from last season then.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

No, not really. Uh, and you know, if you just look at the some of the triscoras, you know, uh Dunn, Seller, Ubano, Archie Griffin, Sam Underhill, two by Harry Harrigan, pretty forward-dominated, quite front row dominated as well, if we're being honest. Um, you know, I think we've seen that the blueprint for Bath hasn't changed very much. They are going to just steamroll everyone they can, um, and it's going to be tough to stop them because even with a Jomo starting out of position at 10, he's played there before, but it's not his natural position. Uh, even with Ben Spencer kicking the goals, um, even missing the likes of Santi Carreras, um Thomas DeToy, Finn Russell. Yeah, Finn Russell. Um, you know, they just didn't really seem to miss uh miss them all that much. I was a bit slow coming out the traps, but once they got going, they got going.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

I I think I know we've just highlighted their their style, but I think one particular moment that I think is worth highlighting, and it'll be interesting to know your view of it from the stadium. That Maxa Jomo pass to Arundell.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Oh wow. Just that that skill set for someone who would naturally play 12 to have someone with that kind of skill set there should have everyone's ears pricking up. We talked about Max Jomo a lot last season. Um, the fact that he can pull that kind of pass out should really excite a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah. Over the top, over the top this pass.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Yeah, fantastic. Soup superb. Um, Arundell, uh dangerous with the ball, mixed and mixed even dangerous without the ball, I'd say, but to his own team mostly.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Um, yeah, it's it's probably worth talking about Arundell because he's one of maybe not the most talked about returning winger, another one we'll talk about later. But he's certainly been one of the most talked about players returning to the league. Uh I still remain unconvinced around his defensive abilities. Um what abilities? Because I I think he was at fault for at least one of the Will Evans tries. Um quite often breaks down his wing that led to them being in that position. He can seem to be caught out of position quite a lot. He doesn't seem to have that aerial ability, say, of Wilmuir. Um, but again, commentators who seem to be very determined to be very positive about his return were pointing out how it's very good that Barth now have a different option to Wilmuir, uh kind of overlooking the fact that in the air he seemed to be as useful as I would be. Um but we cannot deny ball in hand, he is still quite exciting.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

He is electric with the ball. You know, let's not forget this is a man who scored against Australia on debut for England by breaking through what three tackles?

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Um, just from sheer strength. You can't no one can forget that end-to-end try scored for London Irish in the challenge cup, was it, against Toulon? You know, he is undoubtedly exciting with the ball, but I have a feeling Johan Van Groan is flogging him round the trading paddock on his on his defence because I don't think he'll stand for those kind of standards because it just wasn't good enough. Um, you know, from from the stands, he just looked like a bit of a deer in the headlights every time Quint came down his channel. Right, yeah. Um he got bounced off a few tackles, you know, went for the big shot and just got bounced off. And that's that's a style over substance type tackle. Yeah, you know, you you know the ones where they've gone to make it look like they've put in the big hit, but then somehow it's all quite a soft outcome. Yeah, yeah. That just comes from someone who's not really committed to to making the big dominant tackle. Ultimately, I think he's going to be um challenged by Bath in that area because he won't get ahead of Will Muir in that team if he performs like that, and he won't get ahead of Thokken and Singer because Token and Singer had a much better game from that point of view. And you know, all the talent in the world, but if you if you don't perform those nuts and bolts, you're never going to reach the heights that you think you should. And there's English rugby is littered with examples of players that everyone are electric talent, but never quite made those heights because they couldn't perform the nuts and bolts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What’s different this season and media shift

SPEAKER_00 55:35

He probably is at the right club, and it is a scary prospect that if Van Grande can coach that into him. Yeah, he's the right coach for that, you'd think. If Arundel wants it. If Arundel wants it, and Van Gran gets it ingrained in him, that is a scary prospect. Uh, and I can kind of see why they've gone for him. Because if if they think they can do that, that would be a complete winger. Um, especially if they can work on his aerial game, because I do think that's also a weakness. Um yeah, it's a it's an interesting one. Um, yeah, I'm I'm trying not to already feel a bit like oh, this season's already done and dusted. Because Bath do look very, very good. I guess there is optimism because it was a very, very odd start from Bath. Um, they just didn't seem to be at the races. Very it's it's almost like they didn't wake up for the first 10-15 minutes, and it was very easy for Harlequins to find soft shoulders, which was very un-Bath-like.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Yeah, look, I think Quinn showed that the blueprint to beat this Bath side is play fast, play direct, and keep the ball. If you let Bath keep possession and put pressure on, they're gonna score tryings because that's just what their pack can do. Yeah. So you're you're gonna have to be super accurate in your attack and you're gonna have to keep the ball. You know, you you cannot kick loosely, you cannot give away easy turnovers, you're gonna have to be super accurate at the breakdown. But you know, I can think of you know the other teams in this that got maximum points this season have all got the right types of teams to challenge this Bath lineup, but I think they're the only ones that can at the moment. Yeah, yeah.

Rapid-fire Round Two predictions and closing

SPEAKER_00 57:16

And I think an interesting comparison I thought in my head was Bath seemed to the way they play that pick and go game, it reminds me of how Canada played against the Blackferns. Very quick back row forwards, pick and go, pick and go. Bit like the front French teams when they get on that front foot and they just absolutely suffocate you. That's how Bath absolutely squeeze you out of your game. That's why we see so many front row forwards getting tries. If sides can figure out how to stop them at source when they start doing that, that's the that's how you stop them. Um easier said than done.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Um yeah, you have to somehow try and slow down their their ruck ball and be very physical around the fringes. But to do that, you've got to battle the likes of Guy Pepper, Sam Underhill, Ted Hill, Miles Reed, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

And considering Harlequins, who are the breakdown kings of the league, weren't able to do it, yeah. It does make you fear for the rest of us out there in, you know, normal actually. No, I'm not gonna start the season off by making a jibe at the salary cap because we're a positive podcast. But you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Oh, look, and it was lovely to see Chris Harris come on as injury cover for Ollie Lawrence in five minutes. Because, you know, it's it's nice for him to have that kind of cover.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah. On that, fantastic that Ollie Lawrence has recovered from his Achilles injury so quickly. Yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Um it is a bit odd one that he has been signed as injury cover for a player who started in front of him. Um and does beg the question about how he's probably been labelled as an injury compensation player within the Stanley Cap rules, which I think means he's exempt, but he's still there. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, and I think they've hobbled um I think they've hobbled Louis Hennessy, didn't they?

unknown 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

It's just Jo Johan Van Groan just pushed Louis Hennessy down the down the stairs and went, no, no, his injury cover for him.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Injury cover for him now, yeah. Um yeah. But we're a positive podcast, Rory. Let's not start off with too many grumbles at Bath because And I positively think they're chance in it. We already get absolute pelters in their Facebook group. Like, we don't need to give them any more ammo straight away. Uh, but that game itself, uh Harlequin's 31, getting a bonus point themselves, three tries for Will Evans, as you mentioned, Jack Kenningham, who had a great game, picking up a try on Tyrone Green, capping off a performance that really warranted some points. Jared Evans, uh, a couple of kicks off the boot, yellow card for Chandra Cunningham South. Whereas Bath, 47, front row scoring Fiesta, Tom Dunn, Billy Sella, Benno Ubano, Archie Griffin, Underhill, Arundell getting two, as you mentioned, and Ben Spencer being really good off the tee. Tom de Glanville getting one as well. Points. Fest at the stoop. Now is that is that all the games? Is that all the games there might be at least one more we haven't talked about yet, David? Oh, yeah. Okay. Shall we talk about 40 minutes of the next game and then just leave it there?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

Well, can can I say the cliche? Wasn't this a game of two halves?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Uh yes, it was. Uh so yeah, we're talking Northampton Saints versus Extra Chiefs. Uh I was there, atmosphere was good. Start of the game, people were buzzing, everyone was excited. Uh it felt really busy uh being there. And I also a little side note uh to the gentleman that came up to me and said that they really enjoyed the podcast. Thank you very much. That gave me a big smile on my face uh and made me feel very happy about what we're doing here. So thank you if you're listening. Um but yeah, the game first half, very happy with uh what I saw. Considering the number of players we had missing, which after last season and it being the tale of woe about how Northampton were always missing players, we've kind of started the season again in the exact same scenario somehow. Uh some of it enforced by Lions players being missing, but again, we seem to have a lot of injuries again. Furbanks not yet back still. Uh yeah, and uh I was a bit worried in the first half where we had three injuries in quite quick succession with Trevor Davison going off, Scott Young went off for HIA, Craig Wright went off in like the second or third minute, and I I was a little bit concerned with that because I looked at our bench and I looked at X's bench and I thought, ah, our bench is a weapon here, and I think that stole that from us being a weapon because we had to deploy a lot of our bench quite early on, and kind of I I see you smirking. Let me s let me fish for excuses, Rory. Yes, so that's what we're that's I think that's one of the things so let's face it, okay. Let's just get down to nitty-gritty. What happened here was there was a severe lack of game management from Northampton Saints. They came out in the second half wanting to just kind of play this really expensive rugby, which you know, if it came off, would have been lovely. But instead of kicking Exeter back into the corners and playing territory when we should have, we were trying this fancy out the back passing that just none of them came out, none of them worked, and then we just gave Exeter a route back into the game, momentum swung massively, and they just had they just roamed that wave for the entire second half, and just were basically doing to Northampton in the second half what Northampton did to them in the first half, where we were ripping them to shreds, they started ripping us to shreds. And I think it's just purely game management.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Yes, I think that's probably true. I mean, basically what I saw was in I actually didn't see you change the style too much between the two halves, but at some point over half time, everyone sort of collectively decided in the North that um not dropping the ball uh would be a bad idea, and dropping the ball would be a good idea. Yeah, um, and that seemed to be the big shift change between the two halves. Uh, because really extra juice lived off your mistakes and just scored all their tries off the back of that off turnovers. You know, I mean um they started well, Fayo Boso scoring a really um and then obviously Northampton just dominated the rest of that half. Tom Pearson looking really, really powerful. Yeah, Edo Todaro scoring two really nice tries, looking all the bit the player that you talked about last season.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

Yeah, I I will say this is one of the reasons I'm not gonna complain too much. That lovely out the back pass that I was sat in line with was definitely forward, but we'll be quiet about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

Yeah, well, you know, let's Northampton and forward passes, eh? There'll be a few teams that have questions about that. Oh, I don't know what you're about. Moving on. Um I thought uh Lichfield's try, Fraser Ding, really good. Great, great score off that one. I thought Bellio in that first half, his game management was fantastic, he looked like he could absolutely step into Finn Smith's shoes. And then, and you should have got another before half time, yeah cocking it up on the try-line. Yeah, yeah. Should have been 40 points ahead, really. Uh, and then in the second half, Paul Brown Bampo'd had some really good uh in the first half. He absolutely stepped Ram in a phone box in that first half. It was fantastic. Yeah. Um he scored off a grubber kick from Stephen Varney, where I think your back three must have gone to make a phone call or something. Or I don't know. They're busy. They they weren't well, they weren't there, you know. You put a grab kick through and all of a sudden going, should there be someone there? There wasn't. Um so that was yeah. Um, and then from that we had five minutes of various scrums as both teams decided to drop the ball continuous. I think we had about seven scrums in about five minutes. Let's just say the game lacked Vim after that point, real lack of Vim in those in that period. Um and then Ross Vinson scores one after Josh Hodd walks through I don't know, a bus parking space, uh a runway? I don't know, it's just a just seemingly gaping hole in the middle of the Saints defense.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Um, and then he scores another one off a trick line out where the star signing, the exciting new Van Der Mesh, yeah, uh is effectively uh, I think counting C goals.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Well, to be fair, he's quite close to them.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Yeah, he was obviously yeah, he was distracted by um you know small biplanes trying to shoot him off the top of a skyscraper.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

Um kick on reference for anyone who didn't get that. Um just looking completely the wrong direction, and Ross Vincent basically just walks through the middle of the line out and scores a try from there. So really poor.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

Uh then Manifeo Aboso scores a try on one leg after throws the ball at the Chiefs players and says, Can you pass it wide and score? They could. Then uh IFW just hops in because he had so much space.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Um, and then yeah, the the game just seemed to sort of limp towards the end of it. I mean, the red card again. We'll get onto that because I've got a thought on that one as well. Um, Henry Slade nearly won it for Chiefs. Saints got away with that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Um God the rest picked up that forward pass.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's important to pick up forward passes, isn't it? Even in Frankens Gardens.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

It's essential, it's essential to the uh the the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Yeah, but both teams cocked up line-outs in the red zone where they could have pushed on for a victory, basically one after the other. Really weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Um, it's just a weird, weird game. Um, some some key themes for me. Uh, whoever prints the extra chiefs shirts is doing a terrible job, all their names fell off.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Yeah, I noticed that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Um, I've decided that the best way to fix rugby is to turn the clock off when a scrum is called and the clock doesn't go on until the ball's fed. Yeah, because I'm now bored of resets, even as a front rower. Wow. I've just I just after that game, that game, I was watching it on playback to uh and you know when I watch on playback, I skip through all the bits in between. I I mean I must have skipped through about 45 minutes of the AT just on Scrums being reset.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

Yeah, it was quite painful. Um the second half was painful to watch for many reasons, that being one of them. Um that was one of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Yeah, so my my new my new thing to improve rugby is when you call the scrums, the clock goes off and the clock goes back on when the ball gets fed back into the scrum.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

I don't think it's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

I think at the very least, that will make front rowers think twice about messing around. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then the last one is uh the Northampton Saints has somehow become more one-eyed. The chance of off off off for Josh Hodge were so predictable and so lame.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

The thing is, I want to disagree with you, but like I don't want to make a pariah of myself because I have a season ticket, I sit in the same seat every week. But some of the people sat around me, oh my god, I had my head in the hands, some of the stuff they were saying. It's like fine, yes, there's some one-eyed Northampton Saints fans out there. There was one chap near me, like he saw the tackle, and always kept saying, That's a red. I saw that from where I was. That's definitely a red. There's no chance that's anything other than a full red. It got given a 20-minute red. He's like, ah, that's a full red. Why is that a 20-minute red? What a load of rubbish. And I actually think it was a yellow. Yeah, I I don't think he's that high. I think it's a yellow last season. I think the way they've set up this 20-minute red card, I I see why it's happened. But well, this this is this is one of the things that we've talked about. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

This is the problem because now you've got the b both ends of the spectrum. Full reds are now getting given 20-minute red cards when they should be full reds.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

And yellows are getting given 20-minute red cards. And obviously, you know, we were nine minutes from the end of the match, it didn't make a difference as a principle because you know, Josh Hodges running across to is Sam Graham, I think it was, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Which side sidebar, very happy to see him back. Such a shame to him after the season last year. Yeah, great to see him back. Really like Sam Graham. And it wasn't really quite I think that is one of the reasons why the crowd was quite so vociferous because he is a bit of a fan favourite and everyone knows what happened to him last season. But by the by.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

By the by, but I mean he he so he's running across laterally into Sam Graham, so it's always a dangerous moment where you're tackling a forward. Sam Graham steps quite late into it. He has got his head on the wrong side. He does rap, he's not trying to make an illegal tackle, and it's it's head on head rather than shoulder. More bad foul play.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

And he's basically got his head on the wrong side. That's really the mistake he's made, which mostly comes from the late step.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Yeah, I I think this is one of those things that probably shouldn't happen, but sometimes does creep in, is where the outcome of what happened has led has led to a harsher sanction for the player because it was quite a dramatic scene that lots of medics come running on, like auction was coming on, all the medics were running on because he was obviously you know knocked out. Um I wonder if that's played a bit of a part. I don't again, I don't want to like give refs stick after round one, but I do think he lost a bit of control of the game a little bit around that sort of moment. I think I think the crowd may have had a bit of an impact on him. Uh which you know, as a Saints fan, I I I'm not the I'm not the biggest fan of crowds booing refs and things like that, and there was obviously there was a lot going on with that, and I don't I don't particularly like it. Um because I do think it can influence him. I think I I can't remember what the name of the ref is, apologies. Um, but like I think it's one of his like he's not been refing games for that long. I think he's been like a an AR for a long time and he's moving to being in the centre of the pitch, and we've kind of perhaps influenced that slightly. Um but we're a positive podcast, Rory. So I think credit should be given to Exeter for coming back into the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Absolutely. Um look, I think I think for I think for both teams there were some obvious positives and some obvious negatives, right? I mean, Exeter were outgunned in that first half, the scrum really struggled despite that being you know a very big front row.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

It was very obvious for our set the size difference between the front rows, it was quite impressive how Northampton still made that a weapon.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:30

It was very it was very good. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I you know they I think you can see a team that, whilst it's gonna make a step forward from where it did last year, probably still going to be slightly short of a lot of other teams this season. Northampton, uh obviously still missing some big names in there. Probably a little disappointed with Van Der Mesht as a first outer.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

That'd be uh unfair. He didn't have the impact I was expecting. I'm not writing away.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

I think men are still learning how to use him.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

I it was also very obvious that Exeter were very conscious of him because every time he got the ball, there was four people hanging off of him, um, which is kind of what you want from him, uh, but I just don't think at that point in the game it was working. It'll be interesting to see how he fares starting a game, because that's always a bit different than coming on and kind of trying to get up to uh the heat of the moment that the that fixture's up. Well, let's I mean reserving judgment. I was very happy with Bello. I I can see the potential and can see why they've signed him because I do think there's there's something good there. He just needs to know when when's the time to keep passing out the back blindly and you know to no one, or when's the time to kick it into a corner. Uh, I think if we'd played if we played that game in the second half, we would have won that game.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:43

Uh yeah, I would I probably would agree. Um the ginger flash, super George Hendy.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

What a performance. You he would he was him and Callum Chick and maybe Todaro were three standouts for me. And Pearson. Actually, there was quite a lot of standouts for me, but you know, I'm a one-eyed Saints fan. Um, and then on an Exeter side, Paul Brown Bampo and Fayo Boso. So exciting, yeah. So exciting to see them. They're going to break many defenders' ankles and score many tries this season, which is why I'm not worried about Exeter as a competitive outfit this season.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

No, uh, I thought Harvey Shinner, um Skinner, uh was quite um uh quite good with the ball in hand, made some good half breaks, and yeah, yeah, you know, probably they're you know, you could see that with someone like a Len Icawa at they could be very, very handy there. Um, Stephen Varney and Charlie Chapman, two Gloucester alumni, good to see them back out there. You know, good players. I think you'll see issues with those half backs in some of the winter months, some of the big teams, as it size-wise. Yeah, yeah. I think I think that's where they're gonna struggle. But uh they you know, good to see them back out in the paddock. Greg Fisslow, I thought, was very good. Ross Vincent, very good, Russ Tuwima looks like he's shaped up a bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

Yeah, yeah, he looks a lot leaner than I remember him.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

Yeah, I think with I think with him, stop trying to make him Will Skelton and just turn him into the can. Um I think that's the for all tight head locks, I think that should be the aim. Stop trying to be Will Skelton if you're not Will Skelton and just be your version of that kind of player. Yeah, um, but yeah, it's still quite shaky at times as well. Um I thought Dweber had a bit of a mixed bag. You seem a bit of a bit of a penalty machine, I think, from what I yeah, darts were okay, but some brain fades. Um actually not as physical around the park as you'd think for someone with arms like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

Um, so probably the jury's a little bit out there at the moment. But certainly some strides forward from last season.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

I thought Zambonin who came on looked really good. The Italian.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

Yes, the Italian, yeah, the young lad.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:55

Yeah, very tall young lad. Uh he looked like a quite handy player. So that would I think that's that's probably someone I'd expect to see cut work his way into the team over the next few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Well, I think you know, between Zambonin, Daf Jenkins, and Russ Toima, you've got some good second rows there. Um still got Pearson, still got Kruschen. So you know, I think there's some there's some good options for them there. So, you know, green shoots, maybe, but not quite there yet for the Chiefs.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:24

Yeah, absolutely. Now let's not dwell on this game any longer. It ended 33-33. Uh Saints getting five tries from Coles, Tom Pearson, two for Eduardo Todaru on his Prem debut, a player that we are very excited about. And Tom Litchfield picked up a lovely try. All in the first half. Uh, four kicks from Bello, uh, and then Exeter really come back in the second half. Fay Ruboso getting two, Ross Vinson getting two, and Paul Brown Bampo picking up one with Henry Slade doing the honours from the T. Now, let's move on. The final fixture of round one: Bristol Bears versus Leicester Tigers. And this did not go as I thought it would. Rory, what were your thoughts on this game?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

I thought um the medical team at Bristol is going to need to hire some new personnel.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

It's it's I think a couple of weeks ago we were talking about the Bristol team saying if they can avoid uh injuries to key players, uh they'll be they should be okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

I think those are just remind me, David. Just very quickly before we go, um, how key to Bristol are Harry Randall and Gabriel Libertoy? Just on a scale of one to ten, how key to the well, let's just say solid nine or ten.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

Um it's it's one of those things where slight saving grace for them. Tom Jordan's now there. Who was superb, who was superb. So I'm less concerned if I was a Bristol fan around the AJ McGinty injury. Um, however, Harry Randall and Gabriel Ibertoy, there are not like for like replacements for either of those players anywhere in the world of rugby because they're both very unique style of players.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:05

Um, I mean, let's be honest, Kieran and Ravuvu are very good replacements for those two. They are, but who's then behind those two? Those two.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

That's the problem. It's the depth. Uh, it was interesting. The the TV commentary are trying to dress up that Bristol have this fantastic depth in their squad. Unless, like, have you looked at their squad list? If they get one more injury in the backs, I'm really worrying, like scratching my head about who comes onto that bench because there ain't many others.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Um, yeah, I mean let's let's be honest about it. Kieran Marmion is not the youngest nine in the league. No, Bernard Jansen van Rensburg is pretty durable, but he has played a lot of rugby since Lewis Reese Sammit is only just coming back to rugby.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

Um Ravuvu is is actually not as durable as you'd like. Um the problem they're gonna have is I just think they are gonna run out of personnel too. Um, and it was a predictable problem. We saw it when we were looking at the squads earlier in the summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

And look, they've got some good young players coming through, but it's it could be a real dampener on their season's prospects quite quickly.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

Yeah, so so I suppose another little shining light for a Bristol Bears fan, he's probably listening to say, What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:18

Josh Carrington looks like a tasty pickup from really good, really look really nice finish for his tribe, good turn of pace.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

That turn of pace to absolutely skin Hassel Collins was hope worthy.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

Yeah, you know, Hassel Collins is quick and big, so to skin him and and power over is you know no mean feat.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:37

Um obviously there's the Lewis Reese Samet show.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

The okay, can we just look there's a hype train that's left the side, and fair enough, get it, and I'm gonna sound like a bitter Gloucester fan who doesn't have Lewis Reesamit anymore, which I know I am. Yeah. Okay, he scored a he scored a very nice sort of 50 meter try off a turnover. But I would expect pretty much any winger in the league to score. Yeah, he is quick, we know he's quick, wingers are often quick, he's a particularly quick version of it. Yeah, outside of that, he was he was found wanting in the air, I'll tell you that for free. You know, do you know what I mean? It's let's before we just pile it all on how brilliant Luffy Seven is. I'm not denying that. I loved him, but can we stop pretending it was an 11 out of 10 seconds?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Yeah, it definitely wasn't an 11 out of 10 performance. Um yeah, I th I I I think Gabriel Abertoy before his injury was looking far the more superior and dangerous winger, uh, as he often does. Um so I think he is going to be a huge miss because I think he he would make the space for Reese Samet, which I don't know they'll be able to create as much with RevuVu. Uh perhaps that's that's harsh, but yeah, I I'm with you, Rory. I if you were to stop watching that game at the 78th minute, you'd say Reese Samit had a six out of ten game.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

At best.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

Look, I I think he's gonna come really good this season. But you know, it's people have got very quickly behind that hype train, and I get it. And don't be wrong, we we've talked a lot about narratives and stories, and we want the put on it, but also at the same time, you know, can we talk about the performance of I mean Gabriel Ebertoi for one before that before we got to that? I thought, uh, is it James Dunn in the second row? Correct, well done. Well done on the second row. First names, I thought he was fantastic. Yeah, yeah, he's brilliant. I thought Gabriel Gray was superb, yeah, always always really strong. Uh uh Fitz Hardin as per superb, Grondona, very good. Nicely Bill Matter back out there, Louis Tour was still doing bits. Um, there was a lot of really good performances of Bristol there. And actually, given that Leicester started so well, you know, three tries in the first half an hour, two amazing from Radwan. Yes, um who is the forgotten English winger. I mean, you've he's so powerful for the his size, isn't he?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

Um I think Bristol can be can be pleased with the result, very frustrated with the injury, uh, and can probably expect more from Rhys Samet than what's actually Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:15

I imagine the fallout when he actually has a good game. Uh but yeah, I'd what do you make of Leicester? Strange one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:21

Um to a certain extent, I thought they played much better rug them last season.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

Which I thought they looked at Leicester fans were saying something nice, okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:30

Yeah, no, I thought I genuinely thought from they were much more attractive to watch than they had been last season. I think Orlando Bailey looked really good. It tends to go lovely try, really nice finish from him.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:44

Um had to finish it though. If he didn't, he would have been absolutely butchered.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:47

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um I would say they probably missed starting one of Cata or Parise in the centres. Um probably a little bit lightweight there.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Um by and large, we're pretty good, but ultimately struggle to deal with when Bristol go full Bristol, it's either a train wreck or brilliant. And they got it, Bristol actually got it right more than they got it wrong in this game, and they struggled to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

Um they're offloading games just a different level.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:21

But I would I would say that they can probably be quite positive from that performance, yeah. Given that it was away at Ashton Gate. Um, I would be quite negative about their away shirt, um, but other than that, I wouldn't have come away from that as a Leicester fan thinking that we're doomed.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

I agree, I agree. I think there's green shoots, I think there's cause for optimism. I I think you can see how Bailey could be a really effective 10 for them. I think it is going to lead to a different style of rugby that Leicester fans may have been used to over the years, because I think Bailey just demands the ball in hand a bit more, and I think Jack Van Porkfleet needs a bit of time to get used to that. Because I think he's I think of all the scrum halves and the way Leicester play, I think they're probably relatively slow to get the ball out of the ruck compared to other teams. And I think Bailey's going to demand that quicker. I think it's going to take some getting used to. If they can get all that right, and if that's how Parling wants to play, it'll be really interesting to see how that Leicester team fares. Because I think in the pack, uh like Ilyone, I think he's I I think he's destined for great things. I think he's a great player. He's got some shape on him, hasn't he? He does.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:31

He's really filled out over the summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:33

Yeah. If you if you get him really on a front football pack, moving the ball quickly with quick ruck speed, him kind of demolishing the breakdown, I think there's a recipe there for some really exciting stuff. And they got the likes of Blemeyer now in that pack, who I think had a relatively steady debut for Leicester. Yeah, there's roots for optimism, but it it was a game for Bristol to show to their fans that they are still the globetrotters of the league. Um, led mainly by Ibertoi with some ridiculous carrying that I wouldn't encourage anyone listening to do unless you're Gabriel Ibertoy.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

Exactly. And and to be fair to Leicester, uh, missing quite a few, you know, that if you look at their bench, yeah, yeah. You know, you're still missing well, both Chesms. Obviously, George Martin sounds like he's gonna be out for an extended period of time. Um, you know, there's they've got to deal with having lost Montoja. That's that's gonna take some time to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

You forget the experience that that club lost over the summer. It's a huge amount of experience. Pollard and Montozia, uh yeah, Ben Young, Dan Cole, Anthony Watson, Mike Brown. That's a lot of rugby smarts, rugby IQ to be leaving a squad. So it's gonna take a bit of time. Uh, but look at us being positive about Leicester, even in defeat. They got a bonus point. Uh welcome. You're welcome, Leicester fan Leicester Tigers fans. Don't get too used to it. Um, Bristol Bears, 42, Leicester Tigers 24, Bristol get a bonus point win, tries for Fitz Harding, Gabrielle Batoy, Gabrielle Ogre, Josh Carrington, Lewis Reese Samet, Tom Jordan really filling in for AJ McGuinty as he had to go off injured, getting some good, useful points off the T. And Leicester getting four tries themselves in there, 24 points. Jack Van Portfleet picking up a try, Adam Radwan, two great finishes, having mentioned, and Orlando Bailey getting a really important bonus point try with Bailey taking the points from the T. That's round one, Rory. Is there anything around round one that uh generally like do you feel like the standard of rugby is different to last season, or do we just think it's a continuation of what was a really good year last year? Is there anything that's slightly different, do you think? The branding around the games, how the TV kind of how that's presenting itself, like does it feel different at all, or are you still getting the same vibes from last year?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:55

No, I think I think the content around the sport is is improved. So, you know, whether you like it or not with the rebrand, I think the the coverage that's been coming on in I mean the papers on social media, you've seen a lot of clips going around, a lot of clips going around YouTube and Instagram and the like, and I'm sure on TikTok as well, you know better than me, of clips of tries and great fishes. You know, there seems to be a a real push on the digital side. Um there's been a lot of write-ups, a lot more than I can remember in, you know, obviously, you know, the likes of the telegraph obviously always talked a lot about rugby, but the Guardian seems to be putting a lot of stuff out there, and you know. I think there's been a bit of a shift in output. Um I think the rugby this weekend, by and large, much matched up to it, but probably with Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:46

Okay. Well, before we close, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Round two, next weekend. Quick fire predictions. Bath rugby, Friday night versus Sail Sharks at the wreck. Bath by ten. Saturday, Exeter Chiefs, Sandy Park versus Newcastle Red Bulls. Chiefs by five. Saturday, Leicester Tigers versus Harlequins at the Mattioli Woods, Welford Road. Tigers by ten. Saturday, Stonex Stadium, Saracens versus Bristol Bears. Sarys by fifteen. And then Sunday kickoff, your beloved Gloucester against my beloved Northampton Saints at King's Holm. Gloss by five. The Vim's gone to your head, Rory, your mental. I don't know what you're talking about. That's a load of nonsense. Uh Vim'd ups the eyeballs, mate. No, to be fair, Northampton do not have a good record at King's Home. It will be a very difficult game. And I'm gonna be there, Rory, so I'll fill everyone in on how that goes next week. Uh, but before I go, and we before, you know, we go on with our lives this week, before, you know, next week we do a podcast. Do you have any final thoughts for the listener?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Uh Hanna Bottoman is the best loose head in the world of any version of rugby, men's and women's. Hello to here, folks! We have pro bottom.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:04

And with that, Rux and Overblue, episode four. And we'll be back next week. Unlike the week before, where I lied and we didn't come back. But yeah, for now. Ta-ta for now. Ta-da!